IDS

[Glyn_Wigley]

Collective Responsibility only applies to the Cabinet...

It doesn't, Glyn. It applies to the whole of the Government's "Payroll Vote." It goes beyond departmental ministers and whips, and extends to Parliamentary Private Secretaries, who are unpaid  "bag-carriers" for senior ministers.

Only on declared "Free Votes" are ministers (or shadows) given freedom to depart the official line. Remember the vote on air strikes in Syria? Corbyn had to give his MPs a free vote or many shadow ministers would have resigned.

Dem's da rules...

You're talking about the whip system when it comes to 'Free Votes', not Collective Responsibility, which is something else.

Collective Responsibility can only be taken by those who make the decisions and formulate policy ie the Cabinet. Nobody outside of the Cabinet can take any Collective Responsibility for decision-making that they were not part of. The members of the Government outside the Cabinet only carry responsibility for whatever they themselves are in charge of, nothing else. They are expected to toe the Cabinet line (along with members of the same party who are not in the Government) through the whip system, but they would not be responsible for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_collective_responsibility

[The Red Baron]

Whipping applies to members of a party who do not hold ministerial or shadow portfolios.

If a minister, shadow minister / spokesman or even a PPS votes against the policy of the Front Bench he resigns- or is sacked if he doesn't.

http://www.tutor2u.net/politics/blog/revision-update-executive-collective-individual-ministerial-responsibility

[Yargo]

Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?

[MachoMadness]

Seems Osborne has ducked the UQ today and has sent a patsy. The Government is there for the taking and Labour seem to be doing a good job of keeping the pressure on them (not as much as the Tories are however) - proof will be in the pudding later on today I suppose.

[The Red Baron]

Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?

I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.

There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.

If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.

[Yargo]

Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?

I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.

There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.

If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.

Not the only reason but I aint lining up with Cameron/Sturgeon

[wilts rover]

Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?

I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.

There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.

If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.

Not the only reason but I aint lining up with Cameron/Sturgeon

Then you are lining up with Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. Have a think about it.

[Yargo]

Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?

I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.

There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.

If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.

Not the only reason but I aint lining up with Cameron/Sturgeon

Then you are lining up with Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. Have a think about it.

We are all Cameronistas now!

[Lipsy]

I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK

[i_ateallthepies]

Corbyn needs to stick to his principles, you cannot try to be something you are not just to try and get yourself elected, people aren't stupid they see through false people most of the time.
And that's what's happening now, people who voted for the conservatives, are realising they made a major mistake, the conservatives fooled a lot of people.
 Corbyn needs to have solutions to every problem, he needs to show despite his eccentricities he is capable of running the country, and that he see'e each person in the country as equal, whether they have money or not.
 He has to make it known he would run a fairer system, that he would prioritise his own people over other countries.

He needs to keep challenging and pick away at the governments 'Many scabs' that are forming. Labour need to use the time out of government to change, because the way they have done things in the past have similarities with this lot.
Mps need to start serving their people, and not getting into politics for their own good. Rather than labour run communities doing everything they are told, cutting funding to this that and the other, they need to rebel against them at every opportunity!.

Come on Sammy, which one is it?

[Filo]

I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK

Blatant scaremongering

[Yorkiered]

The sad thing is that there are thousands and thousands of working class people who actually vote for them and still think they are the best party to be in government.
Very sad.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK

Blatant scaremongering

Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?

[Filo]

I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK

Blatant scaremongering

Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?

Because they are part of the in campaign

[Donnywolf]

The sad thing is that there are thousands millions and thousands millions of working class people who actually vote for them and still think they are the best party to be in government.
Very sad.

 

[BobG]

This is the best political theatre since Gladstone walked the stump in Midlothian! It's brilliant

A right wing Tory government brought low by an even more right wing Conservative Ministerial resignation. Fighting breaking out on the green benches; personal attacks within the Tory party by the thousand getting cruder by the day; a neutered opposition talking to the wind and a nation desperate for somebody half way sensible, half way reasonable to shoot the lot of them.

If you wrote a novel with that as the plot it'd never see the light of day. But here it is And God knows where it's going to end. Despite my liking for some of JC's thoughts, my personal hope is he gets knifed in the back pdq and an effective opposition turns up smartish.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm kicking myself for not seeing this scenario coming. Last year, Osborne published a Budget that had totally unrealisable cuts planned up to 2020. He did it because he thought he would never have to implement them. He was not expecting a majority. He did it to hit Labour with the Profligate stick and he was hoping for, at best, another LD coalition. After which, the cuts could be quietly ditched.

I'd forgotten all that in the run up to the Budget. He's had to ram this PIP issue through to try to make his plan for deficit reduction add up. And now it's collapsing. And Osborne is a busted flush. His own side is now openly kicking against the insanity of the fiscal plans. But his entire credibility is predicated on seeing them through.

I had always got Osborne down as one of the great political manoeuvrers. But I suspect he's run off the edge of the cliff this time. I think he will not survive the summer as Chancellor.

Either we vote to leave the EU. In which case, he's into political oblivion. Or we don't, and he is knifed in a re-shuffle.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Genius by the way.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2016/mar/20/martin-rowson-resignation-iain-duncan-smith-cartoon

[Sammy Chung was King]

Corbyn needs to stick to his principles, you cannot try to be something you are not just to try and get yourself elected, people aren't stupid they see through false people most of the time.
And that's what's happening now, people who voted for the conservatives, are realising they made a major mistake, the conservatives fooled a lot of people.
 Corbyn needs to have solutions to every problem, he needs to show despite his eccentricities he is capable of running the country, and that he see'e each person in the country as equal, whether they have money or not.
 He has to make it known he would run a fairer system, that he would prioritise his own people over other countries.

He needs to keep challenging and pick away at the governments 'Many scabs' that are forming. Labour need to use the time out of government to change, because the way they have done things in the past have similarities with this lot.
Mps need to start serving their people, and not getting into politics for their own good. Rather than labour run communities doing everything they are told, cutting funding to this that and the other, they need to rebel against them at every opportunity!.

Come on Sammy, which one is it?

Both, enough people did get fooled by them unfortunately, they fooled enough to get elected!.
And also some who voted for them are probably protecting themselves because they are doing well in life. The conservatives look after those people at the exclusion of the struggling, whereas they should be helping both.

[Donnywolf]

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to the Post I made some time earlier in this Thread (#24)

[The Red Baron]

I'm kicking myself for not seeing this scenario coming. Last year, Osborne published a Budget that had totally unrealisable cuts planned up to 2020. He did it because he thought he would never have to implement them. He was not expecting a majority. He did it to hit Labour with the Profligate stick and he was hoping for, at best, another LD coalition. After which, the cuts could be quietly ditched.

I'd forgotten all that in the run up to the Budget. He's had to ram this PIP issue through to try to make his plan for deficit reduction add up. And now it's collapsing. And Osborne is a busted flush. His own side is now openly kicking against the insanity of the fiscal plans. But his entire credibility is predicated on seeing them through.

I had always got Osborne down as one of the great political manoeuvrers. But I suspect he's run off the edge of the cliff this time. I think he will not survive the summer as Chancellor.

Either we vote to leave the EU. In which case, he's into political oblivion. Or we don't, and he is knifed in a re-shuffle.

I doubt Osborne will be sacked, but he'll probably be moved to the Foreign Office. He'll be a busted flush though.

Interesting what you say about last year's Budget and expecting to be in Coalition. The same could probably be said about Cameron's pledge of an EU Referendum.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK

Blatant scaremongering

Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?

Because they are part of the in campaign

I'll ask again then, why would they be part of the In campaign, and therefore scaremonger?

[Filo]

I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK

Blatant scaremongering

Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?

Because they are part of the in campaign

I'll ask again then, why would they be part of the In campaign, and therefore scaremonger?

To try and persuede people to vote to stay in

[Mike_F]

Yes, but why are they so firmly entrenched in the remain camp?

[The Red Baron]

The CBI represents big business and they are happier dealing with the amount of regulation that goes hand in hand with the EU and the single market. Also a lot of CBI members do a lot of business with EU countries.

It tends to be SMEs and firms who do a lot of business outside the EU who chafe at EU regulations. Remember that anything they manufacture for sale and export has to conform to EU directives, even if it is sold outside the EU. If Cameron had been sincere about reform, that was a prime area to be addressed.

Of course one way to influence EU regulations is via lobbying and Big Business is able to afford this. On the whole, SMEs are not. Sometimes of course regulations can be drafted in a way that disadvantage competitors, something Big Business is acutely aware of.

In that context, it's no surprise that the CBI wants to stay in and is keen to play up the possible risks of leaving. But even their own report admits the headline figures quoted are worst case scenario.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK

Blatant scaremongering

Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?

Because they are part of the in campaign

I'll ask again then, why would they be part of the In campaign, and therefore scaremonger?

To try and persuede people to vote to stay in

I'll try again. Why would the CBI want people to vote to stay in?

[Glyn_Wigley]

The CBI represents big business and they are happier dealing with the amount of regulation that goes hand in hand with the EU and the single market. Also a lot of CBI members do a lot of business with EU countries.

It tends to be SMEs and firms who do a lot of business outside the EU who chafe at EU regulations. Remember that anything they manufacture for sale and export has to conform to EU directives, even if it is sold outside the EU. If Cameron had been sincere about reform, that was a prime area to be addressed.

Of course one way to influence EU regulations is via lobbying and Big Business is able to afford this. On the whole, SMEs are not. Sometimes of course regulations can be drafted in a way that disadvantage competitors, something Big Business is acutely aware of.

In that context, it's no surprise that the CBI wants to stay in and is keen to play up the possible risks of leaving. But even their own report admits the headline figures quoted are worst case scenario.

That's all very well, but even if we weren't in the EU, the SMEs will still have British standards to conform to, that level of regulation ain't going to disappear.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB
"The CBI represents big business and they are happier dealing with the amount of regulation that goes hand in hand with the EU and the single market."

But surely the Out campaign aren't suggesting that we don't stay part of the Single Market?

In which case, where is the benefit from leaving?

[The Red Baron]

The point I was making was this. If you are a member of the EU everything you produce is subject to EU regulations. If you trade with the EU Single Market then what you sell into that market has to comply with EU regulations.

However if you merely trade with the EU then items you produce for other markets do not have to comply with EU regulations.

It seems a point of semantics but it is very significant for companies that do a lot of their business outside the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

OK. Fair point TRB. Apologies for my misunderstanding.

But the question then is: is the benefit to that cohort of small companies of such a magnitude that it outweighs the inevitable problems for everyone else, while we negotiate our position vis-a-vis trade with the EU following a Leave vote?