How Police aggravated the situation in France

[silent majority]

Dr Clifford Stott is a well known expert on crowd behaviour and football violence, he offers his expert opinion here;

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/euro-2016-football-violence-blame-the-police?utm_source=vicetwitteruk

France 2016 will undoubtedly be remembered for some of the most serious "rioting" witnessed at a major international football tournament. Almost immediately after the fighting first broke out last Thursday evening, mainstream media analysis began attributing blame and pouring national disgrace on English hooligans. As one MP put it those involved in the violence were quite simply "morons".

By Sunday morning, the day after the fixture, the media began to acknowledge a more complex picture. It was becoming increasingly clear that far from being protagonists, England fans were actually victims. Kevin Miles, the Chief Executive Officer of the Football Supporters Federation, went as far as asserting, at first in radio interviews and then later in a formal statement, that England fans had not initiated a single incident of conflict. He abjectly denied that there were any organised English hooligan groups present in Marseilles. He also refused to condemn England fans for their involvement in violence, which he asserted could and should be understood as a legitimate form of "self-defence".

It was an extremely important injection of realism into a debate that, as usual, had become distorted. Accuracy had been sacrificed in favour of the moral condemnation of football fans, once again blaming the victims for somehow causing their own misfortune. The FSF's position was not only powerful but also quite courageous, given the dominance of the alternative views at that time.

Nonetheless the available evidence suggests the FSF position ultimately reflected the underlying reality of the way events developed in Marseilles. And what is also apparent is how closely they mirrored what happened when England last played in Marseille in 1998, when widespread rioting also took place. Then, as in 2016, this rioting was created not by English hooliganism but by a complex array of interrelating factors linked to crowd psychology and behaviour.

It is clear that England fans arriving in Marseille began congregating in the Old Port area of the city on Thursday evening. Some were singing and drinking, acting boisterously, even invoking boorish chants about German Bombers and Krauts. Others were simply relaxing in the many bars and restaurants. At some point, French "Ultras" began perpetrating violent unprovoked attacks on England fans to which the police responded by not by arresting but dispersing protagonists with tear gas grenades. After this point it seems the police started to use tear gas and coercion to disperse any large gathering of fans, presumably in some flawed attempt to "prevent" further disorder.
It is evident that this then starts to feed into a sense of illegitimacy, vulnerability, antagonism and empowerment among England fans, toward the locals and police. This gets amplified through a continuing pattern of interactions across the rest of the evening and the next day. In this sense it is clear the policing response in Marseilles was, from the very outset, reliant on the kind of "old school" tactics that our research, both in Marseille in 1998 and elsewhere, demonstrates plays a major role in escalating crowd conflict. Ultimately, the policing fed into a form of identity among England fans whereby conflict against police and locals was understood as increasingly legitimate and at times even necessary in order to defend themselves and others around them, or otherwise retaliate against these essentially unprovoked attacks.

These social psychological processes of escalation, at work across the first two evenings, then fed into the day of the match itself. Here they are further complicated by the arrival of much larger number of English fans and a group of organised Russian "Ultras" keen to assert their supremacy in the perverse status culture of European hooliganism.

On the basis of eyewitness accounts, it appears that the first fighting actually broke out between the French Ultras who cascaded down into a large crowd of English fans gathered in the Old Port. Amid the confusion, and from the other side, the Russian Ultras moved against the English, purposefully attacking pretty much any and every one they could. The levels of violence they exercised were extreme and there are accounts of some of them being armed with knives. Some England fans were seriously injured. A few critically. The police then reacted by driving into the crowd with their tear gas and other escalatory tactics. What subsequently took place was the major escalation that constituted the "riot" that filled media headlines and editorials for days.

While media analysis has very much focused on the role of hooligans what is immediately clear is, as with events in 1998, any adequate analysis of the rioting cannot ignore the role of group interaction and policing in bringing about the violence. What's more, the policing approach in Marseilles stands in stark contrast to international guidance and standards of good practice for these major UEFA tournaments. These standards are themselves underpinned by a research based policing model first developed for the highly successful Euro 2004 tournament in Portugal, and then applied and developed during UEFA 2008 and 2012 to equally good effect. While all these previous tournaments had problems they passed off without the kinds of rioting already witnessed in Marseilles in 2016, which is evidence in itself of the effectiveness of the approach.

Instead of focusing on the moral condemnation of English football fans we need to accept the idea that something has gone badly wrong with policing in Marseilles. We need to understand more clearly and objectively the lessons that need to be learnt.

This context fed into a psychology among England fans that functioned to both legitimise conflict and increasingly empower fans who felt it was justifiable to confront those other groups. Put simply, England fans found themselves in a situation, as they did in 1998, where they had little option but to "mob up" and "fight back" in order to, as many of them saw it, "defend" themselves.

The most appropriate response is not some sort of soul-searching about a return to the dark days of English hooliganism. Rather it is about creating a policing response that is capable of protecting England fans from these attacks. The key challenge will be to change the French policing tactics toward something more proactive, dynamic and proportionate. In this sense one of the key issues arising from Marseilles is that the police in France need to move away from their ineffective and counterproductive reactionary policing approach and do much more to conform to international standards of good practice.

Clifford Stott is a professor of social psychology at Keele University. He specialises in crowds, riots, hooliganism, "public order" policing, human rights and security.

[Filo]

Saw your tweet to sky news earlier suggesting they were misreaporting events in Lille

[Sammy Chung was King]

Martin, what happened in Marseille may have been misreported initially (and the largest share of the 'blame' was probably down to the Russians), but what's happening now in Lille is bordering on disgraceful.

Regardless of what's being reported in the mainstream media tonight, there are clearly some England fans out there in Lille right now who are keen to dish out some kind of retribution for events over the past week - basically they're just seeking some kind of confrontation (you only have to watch periscope-type of videos online to see this).

I've no doubt, given the chance, the Russians will probably be hiding away somewhere ready to give it out in equal measure and wanting to cause plenty of trouble.

Either way, it's an absolute disgrace. Those people misbehaving (which will be a fraction of the overall support) are giving those decent folk a bad name.

I can see why the impression is being given that the police in Lille are being heavy-handed and they're doing it for a reason. It's their city, their hometown, and it'll be them who have to pick up the pieces, repair damage and live with the effects of this chaos long after the European Championship circus moves out of town. They're being heavy-handed but they're protecting their city - and they'll probably be crapping themselves and scared.

If this was your hometown and a significant amount of people from both sides (and foreign countries) were intent on disorder, it'd be a natural reaction to want to protect it and some residents/locals would be intimidated.

Those misbehaving are an absolute disgrace. The Russians. The English. The Welsh - and any other 'fans' from any other country who are intent on causing disorder.

Not really where i live, any damage would probably improve the area.

[The Red Baron]

I dare say that once today's game is out of the way England will be getting the same charge and official final warning that the Russians are on.

Though I think UEFA are reluctant to expel anyone and are hoping that both teams go out early. The Russians seem nearly there and if England don't win today we'll struggle to progress.

[Donnywolf]

Rigo

A most eloquent post I have to say - OR imo "you nailed it " Similar to what I posted a few days ago - disgraceful behaviour by lots of people purporting to be fans or actually genuine fans. Spoils it for everyone unfortunately and the same "effect" on the vast majority of genuine fans as Speed Humps have on the vast majority of Drivers - because the minority wont behave appropriately

Not surprised Police have to react because as you say these scenes are being played out on French streets affecting French people with perhaps no interest in Football at all and damaging French Businesses and property which they will have to clean up and pay for . Lille is a fantastic City and to be revered not wrecked.

[The Red Baron]

I dare say when the troublemakers get back home there will be a few banning orders flying about.

[Big lad up front]

Is it time the FA took the initiative and pulled the national team out of the tournament before we are embarrassed any more.
Not bothered who started it or who's involved England supporters are in the middle and causing mayhem
I for one am fed up of seeing this everyday in the media and really not bothered about the actual football
It's a tournament and will be forgotten very quickly for the football
People are going to get killed out there leaving a lasting memory which their families won't forget
As much as I want Englang to do well I don't want it at the expense of that

[Donnywolf]

I dare say when the troublemakers get back home there will be a few banning orders flying about.

Dare say there will be and if justified make them long or if possible indefinite ones.

Unfortunately I thought this kind of misbehaving / fighting crap had been phased out but I guess it has not and what worries me is if 100 people are "banned" then I dare say come the next Tourney another 100 "fans" will have taken their places.

Maybe if it is dying away (hopefully it is) the undoubted minority will continue to get smaller till it CAN be truly controlled

[Robert Gravil]

Martin, what happened in Marseille may have been misreported initially (and the largest share of the 'blame' was probably down to the Russians), but what's happening now in Lille is bordering on disgraceful.

Regardless of what's being reported in the mainstream media tonight, there are clearly some England fans out there in Lille right now who are keen to dish out some kind of retribution for events over the past week - basically they're just seeking some kind of confrontation (you only have to watch periscope-type of videos online to see this).

I've no doubt, given the chance, the Russians will probably be hiding away somewhere ready to give it out in equal measure and wanting to cause plenty of trouble.

Either way, it's an absolute disgrace. Those people misbehaving (which will be a fraction of the overall support) are giving those decent folk a bad name.

I can see why the impression is being given that the police in Lille are being heavy-handed and they're doing it for a reason. It's their city, their hometown, and it'll be them who have to pick up the pieces, repair damage and live with the effects of this chaos long after the European Championship circus moves out of town. They're being heavy-handed but they're protecting their city - and they'll probably be crapping themselves and scared.

If this was your hometown and a significant amount of people from both sides (and foreign countries) were intent on disorder, it'd be a natural reaction to want to protect it and some residents/locals would be intimidated.

Those misbehaving are an absolute disgrace. The Russians. The English. The Welsh - and any other 'fans' from any other country who are intent on causing disorder.

Families only in future for England travel and tickets only. When fans group together and drink all day they are too easily manipulated by sick individuals and group dynamics. Im sure the vast majority think they are defending themselves. They are putting themselves in danger - but dont learn. Why dont they steer clear of these groups I can only think its because they get a buzz from it, but they are selfishly putting their perverted enjoyment first and ignoring the harm being caused to our game and our country and to the locals and businesses in France. Enough is enough.

[The Red Baron]

As the next tournament is the World Cup in Russia it might be a good idea if only those looking for trouble go there!

[Filo]

It's difficult to get a clear picture of whats happening, but to me it looks like the French Police have closed the stable door after the horse has bolted. The Russiens had free reign to attack whoever they liked last week, the French Police did nothing to stop them, the English and Welsh have adopted a safety in numbers approach and the French Police have now decided to respond to this by batton charging them, is there any wonder theres a reaction when they've been treated like this?
It appears that the French Police have been totally incompetent in dealing with these incidents

[colincramb]

Was probably going to head out to Lille a week on Saturday with the mrs, but what's going on has put paid to that unfortunately. It's just not worth the risk, even for supporters that have no desire whatsoever to get involved with these morons.

Yes, the policing tactics aren't particularly helpful and are probably escalating trouble. BUT it's not their fault a couple of hundred/thousand fans are chanting songs about world war 2 and getting aggressive. They are the same types you see in town on a Saturday night, Chaved up to the eyeballs, unable to hold their ale and built like a glass of water.

Such a shame.

[Donnywolf]

Aye its a damn shame that the enjoyment of the huge majority of the population is kiboshed ? by the undoubtedly small minority.

It was my point earlier in mentioning Speed Humps. Some boy (and girl) racers are intent on speeding so the rest of us have to pay the penalty !

[BillyStubbsTears]

That article that SM posted.

"Some were singing and drinking, acting boisterously, even invoking boorish chants about German Bombers and Krauts."

See, that sort of "banter" has become normalised among English fans. We're desensitised to it. That's what I saw in Cologne in WC2006. In a city several hundred km from where England were playing that day, there were thousands of pissed up, boorish Englishmen singing the Dam Busters theme and "Two World Wars and one World Cup" and generally acting like cock ends.

No other groups of fans were doing that in the days I was there. Just us.

At the very least it is f**king pathetic and obnoxious. At worst, it is a catalyst for others to take the challenge to another level.

Clearly, in the current case, the Russians are on a different plane of aggression. But unless and until we address the culture that normalises the bristling boorishness that we export, we are still part of the problem.

The academic might be right in stating that the attacks in Marseilles were "unprovoked" if by "unprovoked" he means "unprovoked in the immediate short-term." Thing is, the reason why English fans specifically were attacked is that a significant proportion of our travelling fans have been provoking for generations.

Chickens do come home to roost eventually.

[Chris Black come back]

Don't understand why ten years ago in Germany it was all sweetness and light, WAGs and Fan Zones - yet moment it gets to France it is full of d**kheads (and many decent folk).

Can't imagine in last ten years the old bill have loosened their grip in UK with banning orders etc.

[colincramb]

It wasn't all sweetness and light in Germany. Still plenty of clashes between us and others.

A reason is likely to be the proximity and cheap cost of getting to France. Your average scrote can't afford to fly to Brazil to 'kick off'.

[Chris Black come back]

Yes, the distance is an issue. Which is why the 2006 comparison is the one cited rather than 2002, 2010, 2014 etc.

[mrfrostsdad]

The problem is, the boorish chanting and behaviour is accepted as 'normal' over here. We have our fair share of half wits who do it, especially at away games.
Police making the problem worse?? Yes. The police here have made the problem worse by being unable to do anything about such behaviour. I have witnessed absolute cretins from Doncaster chanting to policewomen 'You've got chlymydia' etc etc and they have little option other than to accept said chanting.
Public Order/football policing in this country has taken such a back step now it appears the yobs think their behaviour is acceptable.
I know what I would do personally, and it's probably a good job I'm not a politician

[bpoolrover]

Have been to a few tournaments and just about every country gather outside pubs singing all day long, not sure why people think it's just our great nation

[NickDRFC]

I'm sure they do, bpoolrover, but do other country's fans sing potentially inflammatory chants about world war victories, the RAF shooting down German bombers, or not surrendering to the IRA?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Singing songs like that is still singing, and the posturing and baiting that goes with it is also harmless. Anyone who takes physical aggression as a means of responding to this is the dick. That's the difference between what I've been able to see over recent days and with what English fans have done in the past, and with what the Russians and others are doing now.

[Bentley Bullet]

It's a bit like when Rovers used to play Forest before our decline. Half of the Rovers' fans singing about 'scabs' didn't have a clue what it was all about, but carried on regardless. Just like nowadays against the Germans most of our lot haven't a clue what it's like to get their chippy bombed.

[Bristol Red Rover]

.... Just like nowadays against the Germans most of our lot haven't a clue what it's like to get their chippy bombed.

I can't think of anything wurst.

[Nudga]

.... Just like nowadays against the Germans most of our lot haven't a clue what it's like to get their chippy bombed.

I can't think of anything wurst.

Silly focke.

[eastender]

.... Just like nowadays against the Germans most of our lot haven't a clue what it's like to get their chippy bombed.

I can't think of anything wurst.

Silly focke.

That's a bit nazi

[Samson Vidal]

.... Just like nowadays against the Germans most of our lot haven't a clue what it's like to get their chippy bombed.

I can't think of anything wurst.

Silly focke.

That's a bit nazi

Anne frankly I don't think he cares

[eastender]

.... Just like nowadays against the Germans most of our lot haven't a clue what it's like to get their chippy bombed.

I can't think of anything wurst.

Silly focke.

That's a bit nazi

Anne frankly I don't think he cares

This is Goring on , but as gestap to stop

[RedJ]

I hate how eastender Goebbels up all the best puns.

[Bentley Bullet]

Seriously, fans shouldn't sing about the war when they play the Germans, hitler fect the team's performance.

[The Red Baron]

Godwin's Law!