Little boy blue. Tonight itv1 9pm

[not on facebook]

So in your hypothetical scenario Bally1950, not only do we have to imagine we're in a bit of a pickle, we also have to imagine that we're also incompetent? Quite strict criteria you're enforcing.

Let's be clear about this, Duckenfield had access to all the information he needed to ensure a safe experience for the fans. He was provided with a report detailing the crowd management of the 1988 semi-final. He didn't read it. He read the Green Guide, assumed that meant the stewards were responsible and failed to grasp that the police, which he was in charge of, had actually taken responsibility.

And Oslo, once you've finished noshing off PC Bally - you might ask him to present evidence of his claim that the police wanted to move the game. I'm not saying it isn't true, but it's the only thing you've chosen to believe yet it's the only claim that hasn't been backed up with any evidence. Strange that.

You've also evaded a point a raised previously. As a self-confessed football hooligan, do you feel any degree of culpability for creating the environment within which a tragedy such as Hillsborough could unfold?

Without spending any time trawling throu reports about this Hillsboro I have said all along in this thread that the blame starts at the top and filters down > FA > SYP > fans actions.

The sole reason why I place the FA at the top was because of issues at the previous Spurs v wolves semi final and my experience at the SWFC V CFC game.> I take it for granted that the FA must have read a report on the two incidents above but still placed cup semi finals at Hillsboro after the Spurs v wolves game.

On strength of above I don't need any reports to point my finger at the FA.then bally1950 adds a fact that SYP tasked questions about the lpool v forest game been held at Hillsboro ,I never knew that as I don't track back ,but it's good enough for me as I still come to exact same conclusion without bally1950 input or not .

The FA have too shoulder some of the blame as they did not have the interests of football supporters as they must have known about previous issues.

I bet my last $$$ that the middle pen at Hillsboro has had more than the two games mentioned above crushing issues to various extents with the lpool v forest game been worst case .i can't back this up with any reports or a paper trail it's just my gutt fealings .

If no had died at the lpool v forest game or there had been any serious crush incidents ,the FA would have played the next and next semi finals at the Hillsboro ticking time bomb ,untill deaths happened .

[Syme]

There are so many factual inaccuracies, slurs and outright lies in your posts bally1950 that there seems little point to me in continuing this.

Oslo - I see once again you didn't answer my question about the culpability of hooligans in creating the environment in which Hillsborough was possible. Perhaps you missed it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

YOU ask why the Police did not cordon off the area to assist with the rush,,,,well because nobody knew the pre planned tactics being employed by the fans, who despite your views were in pubs till nearly k o time, I cannot say more. What I will say on your points of Intelligence - Which Police Force have refused to be party to this enquiry and have claimed immunity. Which football club have suffered most? .

The previous year there were only a few bobbies at the rail station to meet the fans, (without it was believed there to be a problem) but they were wrong and there were insufficient Bobbies to deal with that crowd.

This time there were three times as many Bobbies for an expected very large of unruly fans as in previous year, and only a small number got off and many were families. SYP were met with a complaint by them of harassment and over policing.  I tell you I cannot and will not pass on information I am aware of.  You can search the web "Which ironically you ridiculed me for a while back to back up my argument well you certainly want to go all out on this do you not"

NOw do your research and come back with answers for me will you because I really feel like a headmaster giving homework to two little boys. Who know nothing and are made to search for information. I may be a minority on this now but there are many who think the same as me and Know  more than anyone. I suggest that is the CPS.

You may well have got away with your "Cover Up" theory but you do not understand the Laws of Evidence and Opinion is not allowed. UNLESS you are totally qualified to give that opinion.

Anyway as someone has pointed out the second part of the drama is on tonight and I can tell you I will not watch it nor did I watch the first one. Lets see what the Scallies have really got up to.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that every other time an outer corden was employed at Hillsborough prior to this match that it was because the police knew of the 'pre-planned tactics' of the fans, and not because it was standard crowd control procedure??

Oh, and as for as for the number of bobbies there on the day, it is yet again another thing that was irrelevant to how the disaster happened. It was what they were told (or not told) to do, not how many of them did (or didn't do) it.

PS I used to conduct Interviews Under Caution. And you have the barefaced cheek to say I do not understand Laws of Evidence, and am not qualifed to comment?

PPS I still don't know why you directed us to the Public Order Act 1986, nor which Section of it is what you think is relevant to Hillsborough.

[Syme]

172 fewer bobbies there in 1989 than there had been in 1988.

[Syme]

I can't help but feel it's not your computer that's going haywire...

[Glyn_Wigley]

YOU ask why the Police did not cordon off the area to assist with the rush,,,,well because nobody knew the pre planned tactics being employed by the fans, who despite your views were in pubs till nearly k o time, I cannot say more. What I will say on your points of Intelligence - Which Police Force have refused to be party to this enquiry and have claimed immunity. Which football club have suffered most? .

The previous year there were only a few bobbies at the rail station to meet the fans, (without it was believed there to be a problem) but they were wrong and there were insufficient Bobbies to deal with that crowd.

This time there were three times as many Bobbies for an expected very large of unruly fans as in previous year, and only a small number got off and many were families. SYP were met with a complaint by them of harassment and over policing.  I tell you I cannot and will not pass on information I am aware of.  You can search the web "Which ironically you ridiculed me for a while back to back up my argument well you certainly want to go all out on this do you not"

NOw do your research and come back with answers for me will you because I really feel like a headmaster giving homework to two little boys. Who know nothing and are made to search for information. I may be a minority on this now but there are many who think the same as me and Know  more than anyone. I suggest that is the CPS.

You may well have got away with your "Cover Up" theory but you do not understand the Laws of Evidence and Opinion is not allowed. UNLESS you are totally qualified to give that opinion.

Anyway as someone has pointed out the second part of the drama is on tonight and I can tell you I will not watch it nor did I watch the first one. Lets see what the Scallies have really got up to.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that every other time an outer corden was employed at Hillsborough prior to this match that it was because the police knew of the 'pre-planned tactics' of the fans, and not because it was standard crowd control procedure??

Oh, and as for as for the number of bobbies there on the day, it is yet again another thing that was irrelevant to how the disaster happened. It was what they were told (or not told) to do, not how many of them did (or didn't do) it.

PS I used to conduct Interviews Under Caution. And you have the barefaced cheek to say I do not understand Laws of Evidence, and am not qualifed to comment?

PPS I still don't know why you directed us to the Public Order Act 1986, nor which Section of it is what you think is relevant to Hillsborough.

My computer keeps going haywire, must be telling me something but oh never mind. Just go away and remember your allegation against me, also you therefore know that there is a n offence of Contempt of Court. You are sailing close to the wind by trying to extract evidence from an on going Criminal Enquiry.

Really?

What have I alleged you of? F*ck all.

Contempt of Court? Billshut. Tell me how I can possibly be in contempt of any court.

Extracting evidence from an ongoing criminal enquiry? Oh do please tell everybody how I can possibly do that.

Baffling with billshut has failed and you're reduced to crap like this.

[Glyn_Wigley]

YOU ask why the Police did not cordon off the area to assist with the rush,,,,well because nobody knew the pre planned tactics being employed by the fans, who despite your views were in pubs till nearly k o time, I cannot say more. What I will say on your points of Intelligence - Which Police Force have refused to be party to this enquiry and have claimed immunity. Which football club have suffered most? .

The previous year there were only a few bobbies at the rail station to meet the fans, (without it was believed there to be a problem) but they were wrong and there were insufficient Bobbies to deal with that crowd.

This time there were three times as many Bobbies for an expected very large of unruly fans as in previous year, and only a small number got off and many were families. SYP were met with a complaint by them of harassment and over policing.  I tell you I cannot and will not pass on information I am aware of.  You can search the web "Which ironically you ridiculed me for a while back to back up my argument well you certainly want to go all out on this do you not"

NOw do your research and come back with answers for me will you because I really feel like a headmaster giving homework to two little boys. Who know nothing and are made to search for information. I may be a minority on this now but there are many who think the same as me and Know  more than anyone. I suggest that is the CPS.

You may well have got away with your "Cover Up" theory but you do not understand the Laws of Evidence and Opinion is not allowed. UNLESS you are totally qualified to give that opinion.

Anyway as someone has pointed out the second part of the drama is on tonight and I can tell you I will not watch it nor did I watch the first one. Lets see what the Scallies have really got up to.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that every other time an outer corden was employed at Hillsborough prior to this match that it was because the police knew of the 'pre-planned tactics' of the fans, and not because it was standard crowd control procedure??

Oh, and as for as for the number of bobbies there on the day, it is yet again another thing that was irrelevant to how the disaster happened. It was what they were told (or not told) to do, not how many of them did (or didn't do) it.

PS I used to conduct Interviews Under Caution. And you have the barefaced cheek to say I do not understand Laws of Evidence, and am not qualifed to comment?

PPS I still don't know why you directed us to the Public Order Act 1986, nor which Section of it is what you think is relevant to Hillsborough.

HEY JUST LIKE YOU I DID NOT KNOW YOU TOOK STATEMENTS ETC UNDER CAUTION OH AM I  A PROPHET - do I know what every poster does. No and so just because you understand the Caution does make you understand Jack Shit - Most statements under caution either witness or otherwise contain lies, and THAT you do know.. perhaps wish to ignore. But you continue to call me a liar on a public forum and I assure you that I will make arrangements for you to have to be interviewed under caution my dear schoolboy friend. 

I've told you before what I used to do. Not my fault if you've forgotten and thought you could play the 'ignorance' card, is it?

Please feel free to waste police time interviewing me under caution if it will make you happy.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Your last line errrrr well I do understand that when all hell let loose it was put out that there was a serious public order situation taking place at Hillsboro.  Cordons and the need rely on intelligence. OR

Under which Section?

And as I can't find any record of it being called a public order situation by anybody, I'd also like to know when any such determination was made, mainly because of the lengthy delay in summoning ambulances to the ground.

[not on facebook]

There are so many factual inaccuracies, slurs and outright lies in your posts bally1950 that there seems little point to me in continuing this.

Oslo - I see once again you didn't answer my question about the culpability of hooligans in creating the environment in which Hillsborough was possible. Perhaps you missed it.

If it was not for hooligans fences would have not been put up

THe FA gavd Liverpool fans th leppings lane end due to be worried about fans crossing over each other if it was the other way round > in other words hooligans from both clubs could well have got their hands dirty if passing each other FA wanted to take that option away.

as for hooligan plans on the actual day of the game I can not add anything if either set of fans had thoughts of whatever,but back in them days I was allways on the cards I guess.

One thing I will add since it was a cup semi final any fan without a ticket hooligan or not would have been pre occupied all day on how to get into the ground > that is human nature and since lpool were the masters at it any ticketless fans I guess would have had a formula > but like it has pointed out it's hard to come up with a exact number of ticketless fans on the jib .but they would have been there that's for sure .

[Glyn_Wigley]

One thing I will add since it was a cup semi final any fan without a ticket hooligan or not would have been pre occupied all day on how to get into the ground > that is human nature and since lpool were the masters at it any ticketless fans I guess would have had a formula > but like it has pointed out it's hard to come up with a exact number of ticketless fans on the jib .but they would have been there that's for sure .

As you seem to think this it would have been common knowledge, do you think the SYP would have been well aware of this and should have set up an outer cordon to stop ticketless fans getting anywhere near the ground?

[balbyrover]

This has got far too personal and completely off topic. Its about a young boy who was innocent and murdered by a scumbag. Sean Mercer has also gone on to stab somebody whilst in prison with some tweezers and has been involved in a number of altercations.
He will never fully pay the price for what he has done,I just hope he meets his match inside.

Must admit, I was tearing up a bit at it last week. His poor parents are so brave.

[not on facebook]

One thing I will add since it was a cup semi final any fan without a ticket hooligan or not would have been pre occupied all day on how to get into the ground > that is human nature and since lpool were the masters at it any ticketless fans I guess would have had a formula > but like it has pointed out it's hard to come up with a exact number of ticketless fans on the jib .but they would have been there that's for sure .

As you seem to think this it would have been common knowledge, do you think the SYP would have been well aware of this and should have set up an outer cordon to stop ticketless fans getting anywhere near the ground?

I don't think any police force at whatever game worried about ticketless fans back then Glynn .

I mean I have never heard of any fan even today been dragged throu the courts for getting caught jibbing into a ground.

I just don't think any records of numbers o fans jibbing in had ever been made as Iam sure it's not a offence.

Back then Iam sure police was far more concerned in crowd controll and the hooligan problem than any fans jibbing in,I doubt the police even spoke about jibbing in issues.

But i guess it would have helped if police did have a controll zone for ticket only fans to pass through
So not a bad idea Glynn.but where there is a will there will be a way found .

[not on facebook]

This has got far too personal and completely off topic. Its about a young boy who was innocent and murdered by a scumbag. Sean Mercer has also gone on to stab somebody whilst in prison with some tweezers and has been involved in a number of altercations.
He will never fully pay the price for what he has done,I just hope he meets his match inside.

Must admit, I was tearing up a bit at it last week. His poor parents are so brave.

You have a valid point there fella ,so for my part Iam sorry  and will no longer add to the Hillsboro
part of the thread.

I will watch tonight's episode on Tuesday night and add what I think about it afterwards.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Hmmm. Looks like someone's got the hump and taken their ball home with them. Now I'll never get to find out when Hillsborough was declared a public order situation.*


*Unless I go by the inquest testimony of the CCTV officer who thought it was for a while but didn't tell anybody else what he thought. And didn't say that anybody else told him it was a public order situation at any time. ie It was never deemed to have been a public order situation at any time.

[Syme]

Having worked for who he did, he won't be used to having his version of events questioned. Things like facts and evidence haven't tended to hold much sway with South Yorkshire's finest over the years.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I got the distinct impression he was making up more and more crap and trying to divert away from the issues at hand the more his claims unravelled. The Public Order Act stunt is the classic example - tell someone to go and look at it - with absolutely no explanation why - but didn't expect to be telling it to someone who knows how to read, understand and interpret legislation. When challenged about it, goes into angry mode and tries to shout me down with claims that Hillsborough was declared a public order situation...when it wasn't.

And as for the OTT last couple of rants he had at me that just were just attempts to frighten me with threats...words fail me.

[Syme]

[not on facebook]

Watched the 2nd part last night and what I found most disturbing is that I got the impression that the parents of the accused were doing their upmost to protect the killer and his class friends from the police with the ' no comment ' stance.

They even tried to put pressure on a neighbour not to speak out .

Then I got thinking what would I do if it was one of mine involved in Something like this ,would I have dragged him down to cop shop to spill the beans and truth?

I can't give a honest answer ,tbh.

[ballysbackin]

Hmmm. Looks like someone's got the hump and taken their ball home with them. Now I'll never get to find out when Hillsborough was declared a public order situation.*


*Unless I go by the inquest testimony of the CCTV officer who thought it was for a while but didn't tell anybody else what he thought. And didn't say that anybody else told him it was a public order situation at any time. ie It was never deemed to have been a public order situation at any time.

NO DUMMY.... I am in agreement with a very recent post about this lot and thought I should remove my argumentative comments. You want to see me, tell me where

[ballysbackin]

Having worked for who he did, he won't be used to having his version of events questioned. Things like facts and evidence haven't tended to hold much sway with South Yorkshire's finest over the years.

Be very Carefull

[ballysbackin]

If both of you wish to continue this, just PM me, nobody else needs to be involved. Leave it with you. Leave the thread to the title. It is easy to badmouth someone who you think just has gone away. I certainly am not scared of you two nor do your comments annoy me. If I am wrong in what I believe then that is my fault but the matter of Hillsboro will be decided by the CPS. Not people on both sides of the fence who can lie unchallenged as it is believed by some if giving statements under caution. And just because you tell someone they are giving a statement under caution and they may be prosecuted if they knowingly put something in it that they know or believe to  be false .

Hence the cover up? CPS ? Directed the changes to exclude opinion.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The whole point of taking a statement under caution is for the interviewer to use their skills to weed out the lies in a way that the interviewee can't deny. It's called 'closing the doors'. I'm surprised that you don't seem to know about it.

[ballysbackin]

Oh I have closed many doors my deal legal, but you can only write down what people want writing and as you or I were not at a particular incident who are you or I to say they are not telling the truth, surely you accept that, also as you should know that Guilty people have walked out of court after being cleared of any wrong doing and Innocent people have been convicted. So a statement made under caution is a piece of crap , Many statements are bare faced lies - as people keep saying about Police Statements. I will not comment on that further because I honestly do not know who was where at what time or when.

Anyway you want to speak send PM, if you continue to make comment about me it will be read but who knows and for your mate Syme, He will argue the toss with anybody and on any subject. Leave him or her to it. If I am wrong then I will apologise. I don't  think you or he would be so gracious. But come 7th I will not be posting the season is over. Goodnight

[balbyrover]

Watched the 2nd part last night and what I found most disturbing is that I got the impression that the parents of the accused were doing their upmost to protect the killer and his class friends from the police with the ' no comment ' stance.

They even tried to put pressure on a neighbour not to speak out .

Then I got thinking what would I do if it was one of mine involved in Something like this ,would I have dragged him down to cop shop to spill the beans and truth?

I can't give a honest answer ,tbh.

Everybody wants to protect their children but the fact is a 11 year old boy died innocently, there is no way that could just be swept under the carpet.

[not on facebook]

I can sit here and say that my kids will never go through anything like that because we just don't live in that kind of enviroment.

I found it very very wrong that the parents were doing the upmost to protect their kids from police questions as it came across that they knew or at least had half an idea as to what was what.

from my eyes they are the dreggs of society ,but in the exact same sentence I can't answer honestly what I would do if put in the exact same situation fella.

I hope the next part brings in how all the neighbours reacted once it was comming out about the shooting .

[balbyrover]

Final episode tonight,  9pm ITV1.

[Filo]

The earlier episodes were excellent, and in my opinion are a true reflection of many deprived and crime ridden areas

[not on facebook]

Iam on the Chelsea v boro game at moment ,but will catch this final episode on play back after the togger

[Woodhead Passer]

There are 4 episodes according to ITV. The last one will be next Monday.

http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep4week20/little-boy-blue

[not on facebook]

Fcuk it Chelsea v watford next Monday