Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms

[Muttley]

The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!

[wilts rover]

After the 7/7 attacks the Labour Government introduced Control Orders for suspected terrorist subjects, which included measures such as house arrest, forced relocation, control over who they meet and speak to, phone internet etc.
https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/prevention-of-terrorism-act-2005-summary.pdf

In 2011 these control orders were scrapped when the Coalition Home Office minister brought in Terrorist Prevention and Investigation Measures (TPims) which reduced these conditions to reporting to a police station and wearing an electronic tag.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24803069

Who was this namby pamby, soft, lefty, Home Office Minister who reduced the control over suspected terrorists you May ask?

The figures we are getting at the moment is that there are 23000 suspects of whom 3000 are closely watched. Of this number, in 2016, how many of the most dangerous terrorist suspects do you  think were subjected to these 'close watch' TPims


SIX
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/26/six-people-are-subject-to-tpims-home-office-reveals
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/26/six-terror-suspects-now-on-tpims-as-threat-of-attack-remains-hig/

Remind me who that namby pamby Home Office Minister was again?

[Bentley Bullet]

Don't try to get me involved in political bias because I'm not interested. I don't believe any of them. I suspect that you loathe Theresa and trust Jeremy to stop the terrorism in our country and that's your prerogative.

I don't.

[Draytonian III]

Jean Charles de Mendez was killed on the 22nd of July 2005 ,nearly 12 years ago,I dare say that training has moved on a tad since then.

[not on facebook]

The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!

The incident Iam on about was not long after the London tube train and London bus got blown up in a terror act.

Police were then watching a house that had suspected terrorists tied to it.

Said Brazilian chao was seen comming out of the hot house with a ruck sack on his back,police followed him and shouted him to stop as he approached a near by tube station.

Chap from Brazil breaks off into a runner and heads into the tube station with a ruck sack on his back and police shouting STOP .what choice did the police have but to shot.

Turns out the Brazil chap was in the U.K. Without correct paper work and working as a electrician I think and he thought he was getting chased by boarder police.

He should have stopped and he still be alive as you can't blame the police on this one .

[Bentley Bullet]

There's really not much hope is there, if one person becomes famous, and his name is remembered forever, because it is of such rarity for someone innocent to be killed by anti-terrorist police, if it means that all forms of resistance should cease because of it?

[Muttley]

Thats the fella John, but instead of relying on your memory of what you thought you know about the events, have a read of an account of the case.

No running, no orders to stop. Just an innocent man being shot.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/seven-mistakes-that-cost-de-menezes-his-life-1064466.html

[bpoolrover]

Bit off topic but Diane abbot said labour would put 10k community bobbies on the beat, is that 10k police in the community or 10k community support police

[Glyn_Wigley]

Thats the fella John, but instead of relying on your memory of what you thought you know about the events, have a read of an account of the case.

No running, no orders to stop. Just an innocent man being shot.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/seven-mistakes-that-cost-de-menezes-his-life-1064466.html

Also, De Menezes was in this country legally at the time of his death.

[ballysbackin]

It's probably more beneficial taking known potential terrorists off the streets than putting more armed police on them.

Ah but the do gooders would say that you can't arrest someone until they have committed a crime.

Apart from what bally1950 has said, there's also Conspiracy.

Glyn

You are right but I did not want to go down that route, in the fear that someone may have wanted to expand the issue against me. hahahah

[Glyn_Wigley]

The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!

The incident Iam on about was not long after the London tube train and London bus got blown up in a terror act.

Police were then watching a house that had suspected terrorists tied to it.

Said Brazilian chao was seen comming out of the hot house with a ruck sack on his back,police followed him and shouted him to stop as he approached a near by tube station.

Chap from Brazil breaks off into a runner and heads into the tube station with a ruck sack on his back and police shouting STOP .what choice did the police have but to shot.

Turns out the Brazil chap was in the U.K. Without correct paper work and working as a electrician I think and he thought he was getting chased by boarder police.

He should have stopped and he still be alive as you can't blame the police on this one .

He wasn't told to stop, he never ran (because he didn't know the police were there), and he was sat in a tube train when police came and shot him in the head with no warning. I'm not telling you who you think you should blame for that, but at least start with the true story.

[not on facebook]

Well either Iam making things up or I must have read what I put up in my sleep ,but Iam 100% I read it via a online U.K. Newspaper after he got shot.

Iam not going to trawl back ,but now Iam second guessing what I read .i seem to recall his parents in Brazil were going to sue the police .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well either Iam making things up or I must have read what I put up in my sleep ,but Iam 100% I read it via a online U.K. Newspaper after he got shot.

Iam not going to trawl back ,but now Iam second guessing what I read .i seem to recall his parents in Brazil were going to sue the police .

Newspaper printed lots of stuff after Hillsborough that people still believe too...

[drfchound]

We should spend more money on policing our country than we do ,making it safer place to live , not wasting millions on finding out what's in Outer space. I'm definitely in favour of the police carrying guns ,they do in Northern Ireland and nobody bats an eyelid

The HS2 project could be dumped as well and that money given to Policing and the NHS.

[drfchound]

Newspapers are wrong if you disagree with what you read or they are correct if you choose to believe what you have read.

It depends on your point of view i guess or whether you can produce enough links to other things.

[not on facebook]

You have a point there Glynn  but I be fcuked if Iam going to take time to research everything I read in the papers after whatever incident.

I can't quite figure out how I have not picked up on both yours and mr. Mutleys accounts  hence I feal a tad twwatish

[Glyn_Wigley]

You have a point there Glynn  but I be fcuked if Iam going to take time to research everything I read in the papers after whatever incident.

I can't quite figure out how I have not picked up on both yours and mr. Mutleys accounts  hence I feal a tad twwatish

You just have to google De Menezes death/inquest. I'm sure that the evidence given to the inquest trumps anything in a newspaper!

[not on facebook]

Like I said fella ,I read whatever I read in the papers which were printed a day after he got shot etc etc .

I guess his inquest was much much more down the line and I totally missed anything on the results of his inquest .

When mr mutley and you put up your accounts ,I honestly thought that we must have been talking about two  different incidents and then I was asking WTF are you two trolloping on about.

Fcuking newspapers ,getting to the point that I will not belive the full time match reports now.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Like I said fella ,I read whatever I read in the papers which were printed a day after he got shot etc etc .

I guess his inquest was much much more down the line and I totally missed anything on the results of his inquest .

When mr mutley and you put up your accounts ,I honestly thought that we must have been talking about two  different incidents and then I was asking WTF are you two trolloping on about.

Fcuking newspapers ,getting to the point that I will not belive the full time match reports now.

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if the papers just printed what they were fed by the police in the same way some of them did in the wake of Hillsborough.

[not on facebook]

So I did read that he got chased into a tube station while carrying a ruck sack and basically shot from what my memory can pick out.

Thought I was going as mad as the cows that had it yonks back

[Glyn_Wigley]

So I did read that he got chased into a tube station while carrying a ruck sack and basically shot from what my memory can pick out.

Thought I was going as mad as the cows that had it yonks back

I can remember when it happened, the story about him running and ignoring commands to stop was doing the rounds then so it hasn't come from nowhere. I don't know where it started from though, but now the truth is out there the falsehoods have to be challenged whenever they reappear. I've no doubt you honestly believed that story, but we all deserve to be told the truth when it emerges.

[not on facebook]

Only today do I feal sorry for the chap after mr mutley and Glynn put us right .

It's been set in my mind that it was his own fault for not stopping when asked and now i have had a about turn on that aspect.

The point that you make out about what the papers reported and was that info given to them by the police > this is leading me onto another thread which I guess will or might upset some but the main issue is state controll via the police.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Only today do I feal sorry for the chap after mr mutley and Glynn put us right .

It's been set in my mind that it was his own fault for not stopping when asked and now i have had a about turn on that aspect.

The point that you make out about what the papers reported and was that info given to them by the police > this is leading me onto another thread which I guess will or might upset some but the main issue is state controll via the police.

I don't think it's state control, but I'm worried about the Police using misinformation as media management when they know damn well it's not the truth.

[ballysbackin]

If the Europeans had kept their borders tight you would not be having this conversation. IS stated a few years ago that they would fill Europe with 50,000 fighters. Well I am not stating there are that many in Europe but then the boats started coming thick and fast and how many IS young men were on these boats, all travelling alone, all had mobile phones and hiding from cameras, then you have the French trying to push them over here.

On the many who have managed to get here, how many have gone AWOL, how many SEX crimes has there been as there has been a dramatic rise over the last five years, how many crash for cash incidents, you all see them...Three foreigners in a car the back one generally no belt on, inviting a collision on some cases, and yes it happened to me (an elderly silver haired man) on a roundabout at The Berkely in Scunny but they got succored. I was too clever.

Racist NO but a Realist that I am. The need for guns for all Police, well I am not getting into that discussion, my thoughts on the subject are my business. It is too late now, there have been mistakes by many in power in many European Countries.  No point slagging each other off  and arguing you. me or us have no choice in the matter, Leave it to the Politicians. 

[not on facebook]

Bally that thing you pointed out about fools in cars looking for payouts after forcing a car crash .

I saw a documentary on if from the north west of Manchester area.

It seemed that the big gangs had doctors and garage repair services on the pay roll .

There main target was lone female drivers or female drivers with kids in the back or as you mentioned the older generation ,which in turn helped their claims.

Iam told that it's really bad now across the U.K. and only getting worse.

If I was back in U.K. i would have a dash cam set on front and back of me car to protect myself.

This type of thing was a massive problem in Russia years and years ago ,but it was people jumping out in front of cars looking for a good tickle or gangs of local attacking cars at red lights.

Untold Russians now have dash cams ,hence why there is a massive rise of awfull Russian driving out on you tube .

Whatever happens in the U.K. Will hit likes of norway mire years down the line ,that's why r girt has dash cam on her pap pap .

[idler]

The wife reversed about 9" into a taxi.
I got my bumper fixed for £250 cash.
The taxi driver claimed soft tissue damage among other things.
He got nearly £6k. I was foaming when the insurance company told me.
Absolutely ridiculous.

[mrfrostsdad]

Having been a cop for 27 years and now Serious Crime as a civvy, the first comment on this thread sure it up: police officers themselves don't want to be armed. They are happy with tazers but not guns.
One of the main reasons the number of firearms officers has reduced is because forces cannot persuade their cops to become firearms officers.
There are many and varied reason for that, one of the main ones is being hung out to dry if they make a mistake. For anyone who doesn't know, the IPCC is staffed by anti police people who like nothing better than to try and get a cop on a murder/manslaughter charge as a result of a split second decision.
I can think of many examples, the 'table leg' shooting being just one (research it)

Having been a Tactical Firearms Commander and Post Incident Manager in a previous lifetime, if I were a cop I wouldn't go near a H and K

(ps. I'm sure other ex cops on here may think differently)

[mrfrostsdad]

The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!

Completely untrue.
the principal officer and his 'spotter's' actions were exemplary. The intelligence and supervision wasn't

[not on facebook]

I never thought that the IPCC was so anti police mrfrostsdad

I find that shocking and now 200% understand why any police officer would want to stay way clear of been armed.

I have to ask the question in my way only but is the IPCC full of left wing fcukers as that would answer my questions.

I feal sick now

[ballysbackin]

Bally that thing you pointed out about fools in cars looking for payouts after forcing a car crash .

I saw a documentary on if from the north west of Manchester area.

It seemed that the big gangs had doctors and garage repair services on the pay roll .

There main target was lone female drivers or female drivers with kids in the back or as you mentioned the older generation ,which in turn helped their claims.

Iam told that it's really bad now across the U.K. and only getting worse.


Yes when there is money to be made these boys are very wise, the two that tried it with me in Scunny could not have picked on anyone so cute as me, they blasted the horn and shuddered to a halt infront of me. Bally here expected this and stopped stationary behind them about 10 foot in total, with all other drivers just watching, then they set off and I followed at a safe speed and distance and sure as eggs at the next roundabout they braked sharply but I was ahead of the game and again stopped a good distance with plenty of observers, any collision would have meant them reversing, not so cute Bunnies . Keep your speed down and a safe distance works every time. They then turned off to the right, I smiled and waved.

If I was back in U.K. i would have a dash cam set on front and back of me car to protect myself.

This type of thing was a massive problem in Russia years and years ago ,but it was people jumping out in front of cars looking for a good tickle or gangs of local attacking cars at red lights.

Untold Russians now have dash cams ,hence why there is a massive rise of awfull Russian driving out on you tube .

Whatever happens in the U.K. Will hit likes of norway mire years down the line ,that's why r girt has dash cam on her pap pap .