Playing from the back

[Prez]

This in my humble opinion, is where the problem lies. Now its well documented historically that Fergie"s teams concede more than average. It is all well and good playing out from the back, but we do not have the personnel, to do it. ( i doubt many teams in the bottom 2 divisions have) Now I am more than happy with our first 3 choice centre backs, they are good enough at this level to defend. None of our full backs are league one level. However Fergie is asking them to play out from the back, which time and time again they are losing possession in dangerous areas.

This is happening all to frequent. Aside from the 3 goals today we either lost possession at the back through Lawlor putting full backs or Houghton under pressure with stupid balls, and then what happens? Full backs just pass it back to Lawlor. What happened to working the channels? Nobody in the channels if you are going to persist with the diamond. This is systematic of Rovers play under Fergie. Lawlor must have the most touches today, and he didn't have a save to make. Incidentally next time Rovers play watch how many times the opposition pass back to there own keeper compared to ours. Now I'm not advocating playing hoof ball, but just don't try to get clever in your own half of the pitch.

I'm fuming after today. I'm still in the Fergie in camp (just) but he has to change his mindset on how he wants us to play. The last 6 goals conceded have been sunday league standard no question. Walsall together with Gillingham were the worst side seen this season, yet they were totally gifted 3 points.

Finally Rovers show some fight and spirit because we are such a soft touch. Todays capitulation, would have made the French proud in 1940.

[The Red Baron]

I don't see that we have much choice but to play from the back with the personnel we have. However I do wish we could speed up the tempo.

If we're going to be more direct we would need a lot of different players.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I really don't think the problems are down to whether we play out from the back though. No matter what way we play, the players need to have the conviction and the confidence to carry out the game plan. When players struggle to pass a ball 5 yards, struggle to control a ball, turn in to trouble when in possession, the problems are more basic in nature.

A goal would probably have settled the nerves. What I don't understand is why our players are so fragile mentally and can't execute simple things.

There's got to be something amiss with the preparation. It just seems the players are shitting themselves and are scared to cock up...and the inevitable happens.

I just cannot help think that SO'D for instance, would have them better prepared mentally. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting SO'D is the answer, but some managers seem to be able to get players to play better than their pedigree suggests. I fear Fergie's management style is working against us.

[RedJ]

Not about playing it out from the back. It's fannying about at a pedestrian pace in the final third.

[dickos1]

I agree

[Dagenham Rover]

Not about playing it out from the back. It's fannying about at a pedestrian pace in the final third.

   nobody will shoot, nobody runs  the ball into the area to cause chaos,  everybody that gets somewhere near the box chucks a pass out to the wing for it to be crossed back in, to slow to everything, I'm gonna wait here for the ball to come to me cos they wont get there first..................... can't defend' can't attack .............

[PDX_Rover]

The thing that stood out a mile today was that with Frenchie in that back three, we are more composed and did actually play it nicely through midfield. He comes forwards. He has that quality that Copps has to control the ball and buy a yard or two of space to make a composed pass.

Previously we’ve been guilty of hoofing it up to Alfie and JM, and then you’re playing percentages.

[no eyed deer]

Inexperience and a non existence  forward line.

[Lesonthewest]

Just about calmed down after that shambles, there was so much wrong with our game yesterday it was untrue, I lost count of how many times we gave the ball away or made the wrong decision, or even the insistence of passing to a player who was tightly marked who in turn was either robbed of possession or had to play the ball back again, it was painfull to watch. The front 2 were absolutely awful, couldn't hold the ball up, stray passes, no intelligent runs into space, nothing, this has not just been today either. After watching that disjointed mess it's hard to see where we go from here because there are two things obvious to me, either the players aren't good enough for the step up, or the manager can't gel them together to implement his game plan. Big changes are needed come Christmas, either way. Never ever have I left a game so early, just couldn't bare to watch another minute. On the way home I wondered how a team could look so confident & ruthless at Blackburn compared to that utter dross we served up yesterday.

[Chris Black come back]

It is almost as if the longer the manager has with a group of players, the worse they get.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It is almost as if the longer the manager has with a group of players, the worse they get.

That's my overwhelming conclusion. The cause? I think it's fear. DF doesn't seem to be able to lift that off the players sufficiently. We don't seem to be able to shrug it off.

Some managers have the philosophy of don't fear making mistakes as long as you take responsibility. Under DF it seems to be the opposite.

[The Red Baron]

Funny you should say that Baz.

In the aftermath of the defeat at Charlton, Ferguson said the players needed to take on more responsibility and stop relying on him for answers. Then I watched him on Tuesday night bawling at the players for 90 minutes and showing his frustration every time something went wrong.

It might be that more of the players ignore his rants, but equally it might affect one or two, particularly the younger ones.

I contrast it with Sean O'Driscoll, whose mantra was about players taking responsibility and working things out for themselves. Now he had more experienced players at his disposal, so perhaps he could afford to do that (I can't think someone like Richie Wellens would take kindly to being bawled out.) Perhaps the answer lies between the two approaches.

That said, going to the other extreme and downing tools because your players have conceded two soft goals doesn't seem right either.

[ravenrover]

the players really have no idea what to do 1st DF is yeling at Lawlor to roll it out next he's telling him to throw it quicker next he's telling him to kick it long then he stands with his arms wide open in exasperation. He's then telling players move hrre move there plays merry hell with them if sonething thry try doesn't come off. and yesterday capped it all when he vanished into the dug out no doubt with a face like a slapped arse jmho

[The Red Baron]

I think most people would agree whatever happens with the manager between now and January we need to get some experience in during the window. But if we do bring in the sort of "mesters" we need, Ferguson will need to change his approach to them.

[pib]

I think the trouble with Ferguson's philosophy is that we're not good enough to outscore everyone.

It's all very admirable to say "we're going to be gung-ho and have a go" but when you are an average team in the league you're in, it doesn't work.  You have to be smart, savvy, structured, solid, and to have that character and tactical ability to dig in and get results.

I don't think Ferguson instils that.  His philosophy worked last year as we had one of the best squads in the league.  This season I think it's pure arrogance to think that will wash against much better sides.  We're incredibly disorganised, so most teams with a bit of nous about them can exploit us without needing many chances.

If pundits like Gary Neville and Carragher dedicated time to analysing us, as they do most Premier League sides, they'd bracket us as one of those incredibly frustrating and annoying teams that just has no interest in being structured and doing the basics.

[Super Colin Cramb]

I think most people would agree whatever happens with the manager between now and January we need to get some experience in during the window. But if we do bring in the sort of "mesters" we need, Ferguson will need to change his approach to them.

Ferguson has got rid of all big characters and experienced players We are crying out for a corporal jones or Richy Wellens to help and guide the youngsters and put a foot in when needed. I feel Ferguson feels threatened by big characters.

[phil old leake]

Forget about playing from the back. Let’s getback to basics and just play.

[dickos1]

I think most people would agree whatever happens with the manager between now and January we need to get some experience in during the window. But if we do bring in the sort of "mesters" we need, Ferguson will need to change his approach to them.

Ferguson has got rid of all big characters and experienced players We are crying out for a corporal jones or Richy Wellens to help and guide the youngsters and put a foot in when needed. I feel Ferguson feels threatened by big characters.

Give over he got rid of them cause they werepassed it as has been proven since

[Super Colin Cramb]

We need players in the mould of jones and wellens no one is saying to the bring them back! We have no leaders on the pitch...fact.

[ravenrover]

I think most people would agree whatever happens with the manager between now and January we need to get some experience in during the window. But if we do bring in the sort of "mesters" we need, Ferguson will need to change his approach to them.

Ferguson has got rid of all big characters and experienced players We are crying out for a corporal jones or Richy Wellens to help and guide the youngsters and put a foot in when needed. I feel Ferguson feels threatened by big characters.

Give over he got rid of them cause they werepassed it as has been proven since

Agree with that but why not replace with experience rather than youth or could that lead to confrontation? maybe something DF can't accept. Just a thought

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Not sure I would drop Wright even after his blunder. He had choices when deciding what to do with that ball and I'm not sure what contribution Lawlor made to help. A pass back or play it out for a throw were the obvious but chose neither.

Same with Mason, do you hang him out to dry or put your arm around him and say let's go again.

Whiteman was another who perhaps didn't contribute as much but he wasn't on his own.

Certainly, Baudry staying on the pitch for a full 90 might have the calming effect.

I would sit down with Marquis and show him his highlights from last season. Get some belief into his head.

Take the team Ten Pin Bowling or summat on lift the spirits. Maybe start with the same team and encourage them to do it right this time.

[RedJ]

I just don't really see what Whiteman offers. He got a hat trick the other week, sure, but other than that he's hardly set the world alight.

[PDX_Rover]

I just don't really see what Whiteman offers. He got a hat trick the other week, sure, but other than that he's hardly set the world alight.

Completely agree. Can go back to Sheffield for me.

[Dare to dream!]

I would rather stick with our youth and progress them rather than getting older players because that doesn't match with the clubs strategy.

We need a manager who is going to nurture them rather than bollock them.

[Not Now Kato]

I would rather stick with our youth and progress them rather than getting older players because that doesn't match with the clubs strategy.

Sadly, a lot of those youths are somebody els's youths!

We need a manager who is going to nurture them rather than bollock them.

Indeed.  Management is all about letting someone else have your own way.  An ability sadly lacking in our current manager.
 

[dickos1]

I would rather stick with our youth and progress them rather than getting older players because that doesn't match with the clubs strategy.

Sadly, a lot of those youths are somebody els's youths!

We need a manager who is going to nurture them rather than bollock them.

Indeed.  Management is all about letting someone else have your own way.  An ability sadly lacking in our current manager.
 

If they're in our youth team, graduating from our academy then they're ours
If you're meaning they came to us from another club when they were about 14 then that's always been the case.

[The Red Baron]

I think what NNK is referring to is the loanees. Apologies if I have got this wrong.

[dickos1]

He was responding to dare to dream though who was speaking about progressing our youth players rather than the loanees

[chrisd_123]

The problem is the midfield and leaders in there.

We have leaders at the back in Butler and Baudry but they can only keep attacks out so many times. If teams keep slicing through our lacklustre midfield with ease, it's to be expected that our defence will give way on occasion.

Up until Saturday, the defence has been brilliant this season all in all.

The issue is with the midfielders not taking responsibility. It took until 3-0 on Saturday for Tommy Rowe to have a run at their defence. Copps is fantastic but he isn't and never has been the type of player to take the game by the scruff of the neck and make something happen through sheer grit and determination.

And Ben Whiteman, well, apart from 10 minutes vs Southend, what does he actually do? The guy is a walking red card waiting to happen with his tackling. Houghton isn't what he was either. Whether he'll get to that level again is to be seen.

My point is that up top we have Marquis who, given the chances (Saturday aside as all players have nightmares from time to time) he'll score or force a mistake from a defender and players like May who scare defenders with their tenacity. Then we have Butler and Wright who have had a good season regardless of mistakes on Saturday but we can't expect them to start creating chances and scoring goals.

The midfield is totally non-existent at times. Rowe half of the time seemingly couldn't care less and there's absolutely no pace. As soon as Walsall set up again, they had us covered. We miss Blair's pace down the right and Andrew with his delivery. As mentioned above, we need someone in the Wellens mold who will stick a foot in, spray a good pass or a nice run forward and get the crowd and his teammates going. At the moment, not one of our midfielders does that.

As for playing out from the back, love it or hate it, 99% of teams do this now and we tried going longer on Saturday for the Walsall centre halves to head everything away.

[RedJ]

Personally I think Ian Lawlor needs to be contributing more up front.