Fans' displays vs Democracy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/f55f4039-0921-4420-93b1-58314614c935

Fascinating. Every one of those groups of fans  who have sculpted those collective works of art are from countries which have been ruled by military dictatorships in living memory. And Scotland, which was ruled by Alec Salmond for a few years and he's a right Junta.

We don't do this in England. Is it because we jib when we are expected to do what we are told to fulfill someone's big vision? Or are we just uncreative, idle gets?

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

It's an interesting theory. Although I can't really tell if you're being a bit tongue in cheek with the "militray dictatorship" and "junta" references.
The countries that lay behind the iron curtain were run by totalitarian dictatorships that used tyranny and oppression and conformed to Isiah Berlin''s idea of "positive liberty". The only post war dictatorship's run by the military in Europe were Franco''s 40 odd year reign and a 7 year period in Greece excellently satirised in the 1969 Costa Garvos movie "Z" both of regimes ended in the mid 70s so might not be a huge influence on today's footie fans under the age of say 50.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Turkey was also ruled by The Generals for various periods.

Poland was ruled by Martial Law under General Jaruselski from 1981-83.

The Soviet Union was a dictatorship in which, by the late 1970s, military spending was running at about 20% of GDP. It, like Nazi Germany, could at least be described as a militarized dictatorship.

There's a genuine cultural question beneath the humour. Those fan displays require a high degree of disciplined, regimented, collective behaviour. You do see that in many countries which have a cultural history of brutally oppressive, non-democratic government, where you learned to do as you were told and jump when you were told to jump.

You don't tend to see fan displays like that very often in England, France, Switzerland, Holland, Sweden. Support there tends to be more spontaneous. Less organised.

[graingrover]

It's Tribalism really but the need to show and boast of close identification with a tribe , a club , a region is the same in England as elsewhere but pre match preparations are carried out in pubs not in art class.

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock" ~Harry Lime

I guess the distinction I was making was about ideology. In a military dictatorship there is only a loose ideology and it is more about suppressing the masses into conformity and subservience in the name of law and order whilst the real aim is to preserve and strengthen the military's position. As such all but the citizens in the inner circle of power have little to no personal freedom. Outside the threat these regimes pose to their own people, It is thought the threat they pose to the rest of the region or wider world is limited, So the west often props up these regimes in Latin America, Africa and the Middle East in exchange for financial access (See the UK govs triple flip-flops with Gaddafi based on economics rather than treatment of the libyan people)

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

In "Militarized" Dictatorships, They have absolute faith that their ideology is the only way to run things. Therefore, They can justify doing hideous things in "The national interest" or "For the greater good". However awful these policies are, They are usually carried out in an orderly, dispassionate, bureaucratic way with the army only deployed in extreme circumstances ("The banality of evil" as Nuremburg taught us). In contrast to Military dictatorships, It is thought these regimes pose a massive threat to the region and the wider world as they will not be able to resist enforcing their "One true answer" on other Nations. At its foundation The Soviet Unions adopted "The International" as their national anthem making it quite clear that their intention was to spread the Soviet version of Socialism throughout the World.
Of course, The Soviet Union was dissolved after going bust trying to keep pace with the USA in the arms race. Much like the Nazi's the Soviet's Militaristic spending was mainly aimed at external forces rather than internal ones. Whether a Military Dictatorship or other type of dictatorship creates the best artist I'm not sure.

I would love to think Britain is immune from any type of dictatorship but I fear many of our fellow citizens would probably be ambivalent about the situation as long as it didn't directly effect them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye.

[hoolahoop]

True.