Destination Championship ?

[drfchound]

If this is the 2008-09 season you're talking about Heffernan didn't even get into the team until around Christmas did he? I may be imagining it but in my memory our terrific winning run was sparked by Heffs getting into the team and scoring lots of goals. We had persisted with either Darren Byfield or Gareth Taylor up to that point with resulting in 0 goals most weeks.

SoD had persisted with Guy who had scored in the first two games and then no more.
The supporters had been crying out for Heffs to play and then he got that double at Forest and we went on that fantastic run with Heffs racking up about 15 goals or so.

[Bentley Bullet]

Heffs got 10 goals.

[drfchound]

If we had Billy Sharpe in season 2008/09 our first one of that era, we could quite seriously have been a play off contender.
From the Forest away match on Boxing Day to the end of the season we were the 2nd best team in the league on points gained. FACT.
Don’t tell me we can’t compete on a long term basis in the Championship because we can. If the will is there the it is achievable.
Take a look at Brentford. They are a smaller club than us and are competing year on year with an outdated 10,000 capacity stadium.
Look at Burton Albion a minor miracle of a club. 4,500 gates and may stay up yet again.
We can become a club similar to Preston N E no doubt in my mind. Our owners want us to become an established Championship club. They are using building blocks  ( no pun intended with ref to Keepmoat ) to build the club.
Spending money sensibly and therefore creating a sound business model.
I predict the best times this club has ever had are not in the past but in the future. The near future.

Campsall, I do hope you are right.
However, I haven’t said that we could not compete.
I merely said that it would be hard for us to be anything other than a bottom half club.
In our four years in that first stint we finished 12th, then 14th (bottom half), then fourth from bottom and bottom.

Of teams that you mention above, I see Brentford have had similar average gates to what we had in the Championship and they have done really well, so far, but can they maintain what they are currently doing.
It is early days yet , just three seasons.
Burton only just stayed up last year and will be lucky to escape this time around.
Preston on the other hand have had just two seasons back in the Championship after four seasons in L1 and their average attendances are 12600 to 13000 for the last two years.
Their L1 averages were around 11000, much higher than ours.
Finances dictate much in football and regrettably our gates make life more difficult for us.

Even established clubs like Barnsley find it tough to be anything other than bottom half clubs in the Championship.

[drfchound]

Heffs got 10 goals.

Fair enough B.B.,I didn’t check.
Still a damn sight more than two though.

[Campsall rover]

1st season was 14th bottom at Christmas. Then 12th second season.

[Bentley Bullet]

Who says Heffs had to be dropped to make way for Sharp? Although Sharp was clearly better than Heffernan they might have formed a deadly partnership. Heffs would have almost certainly scored more goals just on the assumption that  Sharp would have attracted more attention from defenders, leaving more opportunities for him.

[drfchound]

1st season was 14th bottom at Christmas. Then 12th second season.

Doing this from memory mate, but still making my point I think.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

My recollection is we weren't getting the all round game/work rate from Heffs that the division demanded. His running off the ball and moving defenders about wasn't in he same class as Billy.

[Campsall rover]

If we had Billy Sharpe in season 2008/09 our first one of that era, we could quite seriously have been a play off contender.
From the Forest away match on Boxing Day to the end of the season we were the 2nd best team in the league on points gained. FACT.
Don’t tell me we can’t compete on a long term basis in the Championship because we can. If the will is there the it is achievable.
Take a look at Brentford. They are a smaller club than us and are competing year on year with an outdated 10,000 capacity stadium.
Look at Burton Albion a minor miracle of a club. 4,500 gates and may stay up yet again.
We can become a club similar to Preston N E no doubt in my mind. Our owners want us to become an established Championship club. They are using building blocks  ( no pun intended with ref to Keepmoat ) to build the club.
Spending money sensibly and therefore creating a sound business model.
I predict the best times this club has ever had are not in the past but in the future. The near future.

Campsall, I do hope you are right.
However, I haven’t said that we could not compete.
I merely said that it would be hard for us to be anything other than a bottom half club.
In our four years in that first stint we finished 12th, then 14th (bottom half), then fourth from bottom and bottom.

Of teams that you mention above, I see Brentford have had similar average gates to what we had in the Championship and they have done really well, so far, but can they maintain what they are currently doing.
It is early days yet , just three seasons.
Burton only just stayed up last year and will be lucky to escape this time around.
Preston on the other hand have had just two seasons back in the Championship after four seasons in L1 and their average attendances are 12600 to 13000 for the last two years.
Their L1 averages were around 11000, much higher than ours.
Finances dictate much in football and regrettably our gates make life more difficult for us.

Even established clubs like Barnsley find it tough to be anything other than bottom half clubs in the Championship.

Yes Preston get 12.000 + gates but they have spent many more years in the second tier.
The point I am making is that we can mirror what they have done. If we get to the Championship and hold our own over a number of years then we can ave gates of 12,000 +
Don’t forget our 1st season 2008/09 we averaged 11,940
Please don’t tell me a town with a population of 303,000 residents ( DMBC population ) can’t support a Championship club.
Yes I know the population does not guarantee the support through the gates but by heck it doesn’t half give you an advantage over clubs in towns the size of Burton, Scunthorpe, Shrewsbury, just to name 3 which all may possibly be in the Championship next season.
Our gates have risen this season to an ave of 8,174 and we have been in the bottom half for the first 24 matches. That is the highest 3rd tier ave this club has had since the 1960’s
That tells me the club are doing something brilliant off the field. Visiting schools, community initiatives, ticket pricing.
With the emphasis focusing on the youth and kids, as they are the future support we can build a bigger fan base which will sustain us as a Championship club.
It can and I think it will be achieved.

[drfchound]

Again Campsall, I hope you are right.
To reiterate what I am saying though, getting there is on e thing but staying there over a long period of time is harder.
Yes, Shres and Scunny May go up and Burton may somehow stay up, but can they stay up for numerous seasons?
Preston really are a different case to us, they have been tier two for many years, having been in the old division one for a long long time.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I think there's still the potential there and appears the fans will come out and support, particularly if 'The Price is Right'. I wouldn't be comfortable the way Peterborough are going about it, as there attendances have dropped right off despite signing 'superstars' like Steven Taylor. 😉

With very shrewd management with a gradual improvement in the quality of players we could be challenging once more.

[Campsall rover]

But the point is Burton, Scunthorpe & Shrewsbury will find it difficult to stay there fo more than a few seasons because they will never get the support that we could get. We also have very wealthy owners who do have the ambition to take this club forward.
Sustainability is the key word and they are buildiing towards that goal.
Remember Rome was not built in a day.

[drfchound]

I will let you have the final say on this Campsall, I am not disagreeing with you, just pointing out how hard it is for small clubs to be anything except bottom half in the Championship over time.

[Bentley Bullet]

How many teams in the Championship are sustainable?

[Campsall rover]

I will let you have the final say on this Campsall, I am not disagreeing with you, just pointing out how hard it is for small clubs to be anything except bottom half in the Championship over time.

Yes I agree with you it is hard but potentially we are not as small a club as many think we are.
I promise you I am not trying to have the last say on this subject.

[RoversAlias]

I think we have everything in place currently to sustain being a mid-table Championship club. Yes, it would take the absolute maximum of our capability both on and off the pitch but I see no reason why it isn't doable. If we could get to that level and get crowds back to 11-12k then why not?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Who says Heffs had to be dropped to make way for Sharp? Although Sharp was clearly better than Heffernan they might have formed a deadly partnership. Heffs would have almost certainly scored more goals just on the assumption that  Sharp would have attracted more attention from defenders, leaving more opportunities for him.

1) Heffernan was the second(*) most effective striker in the Championship in 2008/09 in terms of goals per start. 10 goals in 19 starts. So it would have had to have been a tremendous performance to replace him and take us to a significantly higher position.

2) We has both Sharp and Heffernan fit and available for most of the 2009/10 season. O’Driscoll chose to start with both just once - that was the shambles of a match when Oster and Hayter were dropped after allegedly getting arseholed in town and picking a fight with a copper. So it’s hard to follow the logic that Sharp& Heffernan would have played together in 2008/09.

Rose tinted specs are grand but when you check the facts instead of the memories, the past is rarely as lovely as folk tend to think.

Correction. Fourth. He was beaten by Ebanks-Blake who scored 25 in 41 starts, Kevin Philips who scored 14 in 25 starts and Ross McCormack who scored 21 in 37 starts.

[Jim Dobbin]

That average gate of 11,964 in the first season was due to being in the second tier for the first time in 50 odd years and the novelty factor. The following season it fell to 10,992 after an even better season than the first at that level. For the same seasons Preston averaged 13,426 & 12,935. It would be very difficult to sustain championship football without significant investment or an excellent youth set up.

[since-1969]

Bournemouth get under 11k on a good day so I think we can match that . 

[Bentley Bullet]

Who says Heffs had to be dropped to make way for Sharp? Although Sharp was clearly better than Heffernan they might have formed a deadly partnership. Heffs would have almost certainly scored more goals just on the assumption that  Sharp would have attracted more attention from defenders, leaving more opportunities for him.

1) Heffernan was the second most effective striker in the Championship in 2008/09 in terms of goals per start. So it would have had to have been a tremendous performance to replace him and take us to a significantly higher position.

2) We has both Sharp and Heffernan fit and available for most of the 2009/10 season. O’Driscoll chose to start with both just once - that was the shambles of a match when Oster and Hayter were dropped after allegedly getting arseholed in town and picking a fight with a copper. So it’s hard to follow the logic that Sharp& Heffernan would have played together in 2008/09.

Rose tinted specs are grand but when you check the facts instead of the memories, the past is rarely as lovely as folk tend to think.

Like I said, you were dying for me to say Heffs to be replaced by Sharp, and when I didn't you had to change course to disagree with me in another way.

Anyway, let's just say I'm wrong and you're right. I can't be arsed, to be honest.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Who says Heffs had to be dropped to make way for Sharp? Although Sharp was clearly better than Heffernan they might have formed a deadly partnership. Heffs would have almost certainly scored more goals just on the assumption that  Sharp would have attracted more attention from defenders, leaving more opportunities for him.

1) Heffernan was the second most effective striker in the Championship in 2008/09 in terms of goals per start. So it would have had to have been a tremendous performance to replace him and take us to a significantly higher position.

2) We has both Sharp and Heffernan fit and available for most of the 2009/10 season. O’Driscoll chose to start with both just once - that was the shambles of a match when Oster and Hayter were dropped after allegedly getting arseholed in town and picking a fight with a copper. So it’s hard to follow the logic that Sharp& Heffernan would have played together in 2008/09.

Rose tinted specs are grand but when you check the facts instead of the memories, the past is rarely as lovely as folk tend to think.

Like I said, you were dying for me to say Heffs to be replaced by Sharp, and when I didn't you had to change course to disagree with me in another way.

Anyway, let's just say I'm wrong and you're right. I can't be arsed, to be honest.

BB

The point was, O’Driscoll was clearly never going to play Heffernan and Sharp together. If he was, he had every chance to do so in 2009/10 and he refused every chance apart from when he had no option. So your idea about the two of them playing together was pie in the sky.

Point?

[Bentley Bullet]

I don't know why I bother, but here goes. Irrespective of whether SOD would play the two together they might have been a formidable partnership.

If what you say is true, and SOD wouldn't play the two together, Sharp would still (in my opinion) have been more effective than Heffernan. Sharp was clearly the better of the two.

[RoversAlias]

Bentley made a rather simple point that, if you add Sharp at his best to our 08/09 team, we could have made serious waves. Nothing to do with pie in any sky, it's quite obvious that the one thing we lacked that season was an effective goalscorer. And as I pointed out earlier, Heffernan didn't even get in the team until Christmas anyway. Sharp would have been an upgrade not only on Heffs but most definitely on Taylor, Byfield and Guy. Probably combined.

[Bentley Bullet]

Bentley made a rather simple point that, if you add Sharp at his best to our 08/09 team, we could have made serious waves. Nothing to do with pie in any sky, it's quite obvious that the one thing we lacked that season was an effective goalscorer. And as I pointed out earlier, Heffernan didn't even get in the team until Christmas anyway. Sharp would have been an upgrade not only on Heffs but most definitely on Taylor, Byfield and Guy. Probably combined.

Deep breath...........And relax..........! Thanks, RoversAlias! I do know why I bother now!

[BillyStubbsTears]

RA

I know all that. But it doesn’t change the obvious fact that O’Driscoll would never have gone for a Sharp/Heffernan partnership. That much is unarguable from the facts of the following season.

BB has this lovely idea that O’Driscoll, Heffernan and Sharp could have been a really sexy threesome. I reckon one of them was always going to get kicked out of bed.

My take has always been that the blank refusal to select Heffernan for almost all of the first half of 2008/09 was a self-inflicted wound. We deliberately chose to ignore a player who turned out to be the fourth most effective goal scorer in the division. Had we selected him during those barren days in Sept/Oct/Nov, and had he weighed in with another half a dozen goals, then we’d have been play-off contenders long before anyone ever dreamed of us signing Sharp.

[Bentley Bullet]

No owd lad, I, like you always knew your love child, Heffs, was going to get kicked out of bed. I was just forcing you into changing the direction of your argument.

You didn't let me down.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Aye. Whatever.

I asked you who you would have dropped to accommodate Sharp. You said there was no reason why we shouldn’t have played Sharp and Heffernan. I pointed out precisely why we’d never play Sharp and Heffernan. You consider that to be a moral victory.

Looks like 2018 is going the same way as the past few years.

[Bentley Bullet]

OK, I'll humour you. Where did I say there was no reason why we shouldn't have played Sharp and Heffernan?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
I think it was probably when you said:

“Who says Heffs had to be dropped to make way for Sharp? Although Sharp was clearly better than Heffernan they might have formed a deadly partnership.”

[anne honemous]

We defied the odds for 2years, year 3 we capitulated. Burton are doing a decent job of it again. Rotherham gave it a go. Scunthorpe & Peterborough both tried but went down straight away both times. It’s very tough to bridge that gap as a smaller club. Of those mentioned we deserve massive credit.
I can’t count Bournemouth as they had huge financial input.

Scunthorpe and Peterborough both had two year stints in the Championship.

Peterborough went down in 12-13 and got 54 points which every other season since three points for a win was introduced would have kept them up.

Unless we can regularly get gates of 12-15k and have some wealthy backers to prop us up whilst we establish ourselves at a higher level (like what Reading did years ago under Madejski) our best hope is a season in the second tier here and there.

That said, our gates at the moment are relatively decent!