Question Time audience......

[hoolahoop]

Did anyone watch this last night , if so did it seem to you like a balanced audience of under 30 year-olds taking part ?

It seemed like the audience were solidly pro- Brexit contrary to how this group had voted in the Referendum. Again those prepared to speak on the subject were over- whelmingly pro- Brexit in spite of all the dangers  that were raised .

Finally sadly is it time to put any idea of a 2nd Referendum to bed based on the reactions of these youngsters and  the lack of any groundswell of opinion that would probably have come from marches, social media etc from this group in the coming months ?

[ravenrover]

Just out of interest why should there be a 2nd referendum?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Raven

In a recent poll, 42% of people said they believed we’d be economically better off outside the EU.

The number of economists who believe that can be counted on not many fingers. The number of politicians who believe that can be counted on it many more fingers. Yet something like 20 million people In the country believe it. Because they were strung along by the biggest political lie in many decades. A lie that the leader of the Vite Leave campaign who came up with the lie has smugly admitted was a lie, and triumphantly claimed that it was the lie that made the difference in the vote.

If those 20 million people were told the truth about how much poorer they, personally are going to be as a result of Brexit, do you think they might be demanding a second referendum?

[aidanstu]

BST why do you believe everyone who voted leave did so on the back of what they were told? Maybe some have based it in their own experiences of living within the EU.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Plenty of under 30s voted to leave.  They just tend to not always go on about it.

[Geoff Blakesley]

Data suggests that the vast majority of under 30's voted to remain. My son is one. He is dismayed that so many older people voted to leave. He is happy that I wasn't one of them. He says people are stronger when they stay together rather than split up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aidanstu

1) The economics is far too complex for any non-specialist to draw a rational conclusion. So we ALL listen to someone’s opinion. I’m influenced by certain people’s arguments. I assume other people are too. Are you saying people are so self-centred that they’d decide for themselves, without listening to anyone else, whether they and the country are likely to be better or worse off?

2) As I keep on saying, the very man who headed the Leave campaign has crowed that the £350m/week posters were wot won it.

[Draytonian III]

Just out of interest why should there be a 2nd referendum?



If something is voted for and a majority wins that is the rule , correct

[BillyStubbsTears]

Draytonian

If something is voted for and a majority wins and the head of the winning side campaign later boasts openly of brazenly lying to win it and it turns out that the voters of the winning side had been profiled and bombarded with microtargetted lies?

What’s the rule then?

[hoolahoop]

Data suggests that the vast majority of under 30's voted to remain. My son is one. He is dismayed that so many older people voted to leave. He is happy that I wasn't one of them. He says people are stronger when they stay together rather than split up.

My daughter is another and would have thought it a betrayal if I had sold her generation out - of course we didn't . We were all aware of how much the EU had done for the region , yes using our money but diverting it from an Exchequer that has spent little in this region since destroying its manufacturing and industrial base in the 70/80s.  Sadly we are considered in EU terms as a " poor and deprived " region - hence many of the infrastructure projects that have taken place over the last 40 years .

That money will no longer go to the poorer regions but back to the Exchequer for vanity projects and further supporting London and the South East. Expect monies to be spent disproportionately around  port authorities and subsidies to large " Brexit " affected businesses ( Nissan + other manufacturers in this sector ) just for starters. We only pay in a gross figure of £ 12 billion p.a. that won't go far  once the £ 350 million p.w. to the NHS is taken into account.

Then there are all those ongoing and promised projects around the country to be allowed for as well as the C.A.P. Finally we have a divorce bill to pay back annually to the EU - it doesn't look good .

[hoolahoop]

Plenty of under 30s voted to leave.  They just tend to not always go on about it.

Plenty did but unfortunately it tended to be those in the most deprived regions who had seen EU(UK) monies subsidising projects that were very unlikely to have got off the ground otherwise. A pyrrhic victory for the young who sadly will bear the brunt of the future unnecessary Brexit " burden "

[DonnyOsmond]

BST why do you believe everyone who voted leave did so on the back of what they were told? Maybe some have based it in their own experiences of living within the EU.

Better the devil you know? You can't base how we'll be after on that we did OK before the EU.

[DonnyOsmond]

I think its hilarious that Doncaster voted for Brexit when you can see loads of signs pointing to EU funding in our region, do people actually think we'll do well as an area with a Tory government and no EU funding? They don't give a shit about us.

[Sprotyrover]

Unfortunately the last labour government lavished money on this region, you didn't see any benefit from it because it went to Councils who didn't spend it wisely,health services that didn't spend it wisely, so called charities that didn't spend it wisely.need I go on! And what you would get was little quangos having champagne shower parties.etc a good example of how to waste Money was Action for unemployment hey blew 8 million a year and got no body they engaged with into permanent employment.
The problem with a 2million £ grant is it's for 12 months you budget to spend it in those 12 months if you only spend 600 k you have to return the rest and the fear is you only get 660 k funding the following year.
One thing that happened was a 40 % increase in council employees, that put a massive strain on Public sector pension schemes. Which is probably why we saw the perverse  move to sub contracting to Private companies such as Serco and Carillion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty. Where do you get that 40% figure from?

[Draytonian III]

Draytonian

If something is voted for and a majority wins and the head of the winning side campaign later boasts openly of brazenly lying to win it and it turns out that the voters of the winning side had been profiled and bombarded with microtargetted lies?

What’s the rule then



And you know this as fact

[BillyStubbsTears]

I know what Dominic Cummings wrote. And I know what’s starting to come out about Cambridge Analytica? Dont these things concern you about the state of our democracy?

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty. Where do you get that 40% figure from?

Apologies Billy Joseph Rowntree foundation figures show 5.4 million in 1997 peeking at 6.3 million in 2006 which is approx 16%.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty. No. That’s total public sector employment figures that you are quoting.

[Draytonian III]

So Dominic Cummings word is gospel .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Draytonian

I’m not sure where this is going.

Dominic Cummings, who was head of the Bote Leave campaign said that he pushed the £350m/week issue, knowing that it was misleading, and says that his analysis of how the polls moved when that issue got traction (remember in the week of the vote, nearly 50% of people in a poll said they believed the £350m claim) that issue was probably the one that tipped the vote.

I don’t understand your point. Are you suggesting that he’s lying about all this?

[drfchound]

The thing that amazes me about the so called 350 million quid thing is that, at the time it was common knowledge that although we allegedly paid out that much, we also got back around 200/250 million quid a week as well (apologies if that figure isn’t accurate as I have forgotten now what was actually quoted).
Why didnt people take that onboard as well.

[Sprotyrover]

I like the Norwegian model, what they pay in is earmarked for grants to Norway, scholarships etc. That's very fair. Particularly as British governments tend to struggle when it comes to funding out north of Watford long term.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound

I’m going to be accused of being condescending here, but here goes.

1) It is an established fact that 40+% of people in a poll in the week of the vote said they believed the £350m claim.
2) As you say, it was extensively discussed in the media that the £350m claim was, at the very least, misleading.
3) There are only two possible conclusions to draw. Either that 40-odd% simply didn’t engage enough with papers and the media who extensively pointed out that it was a lie. Or they heard that the £350m was a lie and they shut their eyes and ears to those telling them it was a lie, because they wanted to believe it. There is no other conclusion.

By the way, this is PRECISELY the way that Cambridge Analytica (who, through a front, were paid more than £3m by the Vote Leave organisation) operate. They identify people who can be targeted by social media, with lies which buttress their fears. They are quite open about doing that. And they are the biggest threat to democracy on the planet.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is the way it works. This Twitter photo was spun out yesterday while there were hundreds of anti-gun marches across the USA.

https://mobile.twitter.com/donmoyn/status/977700330954809345/photo/1

That’s a photo of a girl who survived the Florida school shooting, and who has been a poster-girl for the gun-restraint movement tearing up the Constitution. Any right-thinking American would be horrified and would be very much against anything she had to say. Understandably.

I’m sure the hundreds of thousands who saw it would be confirmed in their view that progressives are anti-American.

Trouble is, THIS was the original photo before it was doctored and tweeted out.

https://mobile.twitter.com/donmoyn/status/977700330954809345/photo/2

[hoolahoop]

I think its hilarious that Doncaster voted for Brexit when you can see loads of signs pointing to EU funding in our region, do people actually think we'll do well as an area with a Tory government and no EU funding? They don't give a shit about us.

Is is an irony but for those monies ( I know most were from our pockets ) being diverted our way this town would have been left to rot by the Tories and Labour for that matter as it is we have a town to be proud of again .

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, on the other hand, I voted remain not least because of the claims of an immediate recession, and George Osborne's threat that a budget with tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented if we voted to leave.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And back to Brexit.

Dominic Cummings is recorded on video crowing about what the Vote Leave organisation did in the last week of the referendum campaign.

He said that they identified 7 million voters who they thought were susceptible to being frightened into voting Leave. He doesn’t say how they identified these 7 million, but given that Vote Leave paid a Cambridge Analytica front company £3million, it doesn’t take a genius to guess.

He said that in the last week, they sent 1.5 billion social networking messages to these 7 million people. Messages with attachments like this.
https://goo.gl/images/SRs1Ss

Lies that are impossible to counter because they are being whispered directly into people’s ears.

This really isn’t about sour grapes from a losing side. It’s a horrifying undermining of democracy. Every single one of us needs to be aware that we are being played. If you see this sort of shit coming in with nothing to back it up, be skeptics. And keep your mind open.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

This is truly like sticking pins in my eyes but I’ll try it again.

The Remain side said there would be an economic shock if we voted Leave. They said that would depress economic activity relative to the case of us voting Remain (they DID make that qualification - clearly - but you never seem to remember that) and they said that the public finances would take a big hit.

Precisely those two things happened. Our economic growth has fallen by something north of 2% per annum. Our public finances have been hammered by the lower economic performance.

If we had stuck to Osborne’s plan to eliminate the deficit by 2019, we would now be having huge tax rises and spending cuts. Osborne has gone and Hammond has decided that we won’t eliminate the deficit until 2025. And we’ll STILL need eye watering public spending cuts to make that target.

The predictions from Osborne about the economic effect of the vote WERE correct. That is unarguable (although I don’t doubt you’ll find another way to argue about it). Osborne stupidly made it a black and white thing in terms of what the consequences for tax and spending would be but in principle he was right. Our taxes ARE higher and our spending IS lower than the alternative Universe where we voted Remain.

The Leave claims, by contrast, were out and out lies. We never paid £350m/week. Turkey wasn’t joining the EU. Full stop. Lies. 

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, I'm sure the truth is out there somewhere. I'll try again to get to it.

In words of Yes or No;

1) Was there an immediate recession?

2) Did George Osborne's threaten an immediate budget with tax rises and spending cuts to be implemented if we voted to leave?