The shiny missiles have landed ....

[Not Now Kato]

NNK

Seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions in one direction, with very little proof.

I think we're both making assumptions, based on the lack of any hard evidence.  My assumptions are based on what I see and what makes, (or doesn't make), sense to me.  Quite a number of people have said to me that they too can't understand why, if we bombed chemical weapons establishments, no harmful chemicals were released into the atmosphere.

In situations like this, where the facts are blurred, my take is to look at the track records.

There have been numerous chemical weapons incidents in Syria, as confirmed by the OPCW. Whilst the OPCW does not have the mandate to apportion blame,there are numerous independent witnesses who have spoken out giving evidence of how it could only have been the Assad regime who carried out those attacks previously.

Indeed, so the question that has to be asked is why not take action before?  Why wait until the civil war is practically over?  Your previously stated view on this is just another assumption, and you may be right; I somehow can't see it personally.

Meanwhile, you have the track records of Putin and Assad. Putin made his reputation by flattening Grozny. An utterly barbaric campaign against militants, which deliberately terrorised civilians into abandoning support for the Chechen rebels. Putin and Assad have applied that lesson in the way they have flattened large sections of Aleppo.

Both of them have previous form as war criminals who have shown flagrant disregard for the norms of combat, or for their responsibilities for civilians. You HAVE to look through that lens. Those are the people we are dealing with here.

I don't disagree Billy, but the current attack on supposed chemical weapon establishments, (whatever you conceive them to be), doesn't address those issues.  It doesn't stop Putin supporting Assad's regime and it doesn't stop Assad oppressing those who oppose him, his regime or democracy.

But there’s an overwhelming fact that demolishes all the conspiracy theories about Douma. We COUKD find out who was responsible if the OPCW were given the remit if establishing blame as well as the fact of the existence of an attack. Britain, France and the USA proposed doing exactly that at the UN last week. Russia vetoed that idea.

That trumps everything. The rest is all bullshit. That one veto rendered it impossible to actually determine the truth. And then the bots from the Internet Research Agency and their useful idiots in the West fill the void with plausible conspiracies.

Ah, the veto card.  The history of who has used their veto in the UN is very interesting....
 

 
The lower, (blue), part of the USSR/Russia bar are USSR vetoes, the upper, (orange), are Russia itself.
 
Here's what those vetoes were used for
 

 
Sadly, I don't have access to anything more recent than 2014, but those vetoes all appear to me to be based on vested interests/outside agreements, including our own.  It is not surprising then that Russia vetoed that particular resolution.  It doesn't make it right in my mind, but it does make it understandable.

This is a vital issue. Step away from the conspiracy theories for a moment and look at the big picture. And ask yourself which side you are prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to.

I haven't taken sides on this issue; I have simply looked at things, as presented by the media, and formed a judgement that raises questions in my mind as to why, now, we take this action and what was likely to be achieved by it.  Also, why Syria when there are equal and worse atrocities being committed in other parts of the world that are less near resolution, (if you can call subjucation a resolution), that we could justifiably be involved with?
 
It will be interesting to watch May's speech to Parliament later today.  Hopefully a few facts will be put forward that will shed more light on the whole matter.  I certainly hope we're not looking at another Iraq type situation, where the public were clearly lied to for political ends.

 

[Sprotyrover]

Could anybody tell me why we haven't bombed Israel for murdering 16 Palestinians on good Friday?

[wesisback]

The President of the United States has no interest in doing so.

[albie]

An interesting piece from the usually reliable Robert Fisk in the Independent;
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

Very difficult to clear the air from the various vested interest pitches in the mainstream media.
I don't know what happened in Douma, but at least I know I don't know.

[hoolahoop]

An interesting piece from the usually reliable Robert Fisk in the Independent;
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

Very difficult to clear the air from the various vested interest pitches in the mainstream media.
I don't know what happened in Douma, but at least I know I don't know.

Again like you I'm not sure what I think I know anymore either .

[Not Now Kato]

It's getting more worrying by the minute....
 
https://youtu.be/lSXwG-901yU
 
Who to believe?  Well....
 
in 1999 - They lied about Yugoslavia

in 2003 - They lied about Iraq

in 2011 - They lied about Libya

in 2018 - Are they now lying about Syria?
 
May says she and the French have evidence.  Perhaps it's time to share it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

NNK

Just a thought. The locals in Douma are now under the control of the Syrian and Russian armed forces. In that situation, would YOU go running up to a journalist and say "Them bas**rds gassed us"? Or would you be looking to show the people with the guns that you weren't one of the troublemakers?

By the way. In what way did "they" lie about Yugoslavia? If you want an example of a disgraceful act by the West, think back to Srebrenica, where we had peacekeepers who were instructed not to engage local militias. That led to the mass murder of 8,000 civilians and gang rapes of the women left behind. The action in 1999 was intended to put pressure on Serbia to prevent the same thing happening in Kosovo.

[Sprotyrover]

We are talking about the alleged massacre in the Kossovan village of Racak which occurred in January 1999. The was the excuse used by NATO to Bomb Serbia and kill 2 ,500 civilians, plus destroy the infrastructure of the entire country.
The Serbian Police had been involved in a day long fire fight in and around the village of Racak, where an armed unit of the KOSOVO LIBERATION ARMY which had been conducting murders etc in the area,after the day long fight which was filmed by a French TV news team the Serbian Police withdrew,and the next day the KLA invited the press into the village claiming thar 45 civilians had been killed by the Serbs who had cut their throats and shot them.the various observers noted that none of the bodies had slashed open throats ,there was little or nothing in the way of cartridge cases in the ditch. The bodies were taken to Pristina and examined by three independent Pathologists, they found, clothing had been removed and replaced on most of the bodies, i.e. Uniforms replaced with civilian clothing, most of the bodies had been killed by rounds fired at range in all different angles, 37 of the bodies had Gunpowder residue  on their hands.Indicating recent firing of guns.all slash injuries and near range bullet wounds had been caused several hours after death.
.all were males of military  age.
Despite all of the doubt Madeline Albright used the massacre as an excuse for Clinton to push for NATO  Bombing, NATO gave Serbian an ultimatum which they knew they would never agree to,a bit like the one Hitler tried to impose in 1941, ie unlimited military access to the entire country.
The Serbs refused and NATO murder 2,500 of them.

[Not Now Kato]

Billy.  Quite simply, we don't know.  Certainly, that part of Douma is still in rebel hands, so it could be equally argued that the people saying there was no gas attack are at risk from the rebels controlling that area themselves.
 
I don't know, you don't know, the public at large and most of Parliament apparently don't know.  Given the history of lies that have gone before, surely it is right to question this action and not accept it blindly?  Which is why I ended my last post by saying "May says she and the French have evidence.  Perhaps it's time to share it.".  She said that in Parliament yesterday, she also said that she had to keep it secret.  Perhaps keeping it secret prior to the rocket attack could be justified on the basis of net letting the Syrians or Russians know of our intentions before hand, (though I believe DT tweeted much), but what justification could she have now for not sharing it?
 

[Not Now Kato]

Oh, and here's a lucky coincidence....
 
https://www.rt.com/uk/424392-may-husbands-capital-group/
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

NNK

For goodness sake! Check the facts for yourself!

BAe Systems share price has NOT rocketed since last Saturday. Go and look it up!

On Friday 6 April, the day before the gassing in Douma, it was 601.8p. On Friday 13 April, the day before the missile attacks, it was 595.0p. Today it is 601.0p. Over the last 12 months it has oscillated between 535-670p. By no possible rational assessment can it be said to have been significantly affected by the raid last Saturday.

Don’t you SEE what RT’s approach is? They don’t give a shit about the truth. They want these concepts to be uncritically accepted and propagated. And you are doing that.

There’s no excuse for that. You can check the facts in seconds before you propagate lies.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

I don’t know where you read about these things, but you are spouting Russian/Serbian propaganda there.

1) Racak. Go and read what the head of the UN/OECD Kosovo Verification Mission said about Racak. About how he and his team were prevented from going into Racak before the atrocity by Serb militias. About how he watched the massacre from an adjacent hillside. About how, when he finally got into Racak the place was littered with bodies that had been decapitated or shot in the head.

That’s the man who was appointed by the UN and OECD to make sure that another Srebrenica didn’t happen.

I know you won’t read around this because you’re not actually interested in doing so, are you? You prefer to swallow the justifications that came from the people who question whether Srebrenica happened, and who have never criticised the Serbian role in the Balkans catastrophe. And who pump out propaganda blaming the West for everything. And behind Serbia, once again we have the hand of Russia, pulling the strings and deceiving the gullible in the West.

And by the way, no credible analyst thinks there were 2,500 deaths as a result of the NATO bombing. Human Rights Watch which conducted an extremely detailed analysis reckons there were about 500. Or 1/16th of the number of people massacred at Srebrenica.

[Sprotyrover]

I looked it up saw you were talking about William Walker,(Madeline Albrights Bitch) the man who bullied forensic Pathologist Helena Ranta and I immediately switched off

[hoolahoop]

The President of the United States has no interest in doing so.

And neither does our Israeli loving Conservative Party - incidentally I am NOT anti-Semitic but on the whole do have problems with the warmongers in the Israeli Foreign Ministry.

[Sprotyrover]

The President of the United States has no interest in doing so.

And neither does our Israeli loving Conservative Party - incidentally I am NOT anti-Semitic but on the whole do have problems with the warmongers in the Israeli Foreign Ministry.

The other Bunch that needs sorting is the house of Saud, murdering women and children by the hundreds in Yemen.

[drfchound]

An interesting piece from the usually reliable Robert Fisk in the Independent;
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

Very difficult to clear the air from the various vested interest pitches in the mainstream media.
I don't know what happened in Douma, but at least I know I don't know.

Albie, i don’t know either but then again why would we know?
If the French and UK governments do have information to support their actions, why should they share it with the public.
To do so might put the lives of say, SAS men working behind enemy lines or informants.
We don’t need to know everything that the people in high places know.

[hoolahoop]

Could anybody tell me why we haven't bombed Israel for murdering 16 Palestinians on good Friday?

Because we would get our arses kicked

[Sprotyrover]

Could anybody tell me why we haven't bombed Israel for murdering 16 Palestinians on good Friday?

Because we would get our arses kicked

Good point!

[albie]

Sorry Hound, I have to disagree with you.

If the UK is going to take military action, without parliamentary approval, then the least we can do is demonstrate our case.

I agree that the security of individuals should be preserved, but if you allow politicians (of whatever party) to take the "I know Best" position, then they will abuse that trust for political advantage.

What you are suggesting gives them an open ticket to act without justification. It would not pass muster in a court of law, and it should not go unchallenged in any other context.

[hoolahoop]

Srebrenica definitely happened - of that there is no question . To deny that is on a par with Holocaust denial, or the behaviour of the Pol POT  regime for the Khmer regime .

[Sprotyrover]

Who’s mentioned srebrenica

[hoolahoop]

Who’s mentioned srebrenica

Sorry I thought you had judging by Billys response to you earlier in the thread re. Russo - Serbian propaganda . Reading back I notice you didn't actually deny the tragedy that was Srebrenica happened. For those that don't know about it - over 8000 Bosnian Muslims were massacred. In the same time scale and conflict as Racak of course.

Just one amongst many reasons why the enlargement of the EU has been beneficial for security on the continent for all of us especially in today's climate.

Incidentally I have seen the " supposed " staging of the chemical attack by the White Helmets - I'm still not convinced that this might just be a staging of a very dubious staging

[Sprotyrover]

Who’s mentioned srebrenica

Sorry I thought you had judging by Billys response to you earlier in the thread re. Russo - Serbian propaganda . Reading back I notice you didn't actually deny the tragedy that was Srebrenica happened. For those that don't know about it - over 8000 Bosnian Muslims were massacred. In the same time scale and conflict as Racak of course.

Just one amongst many reasons why the enlargement of the EU has been beneficial for security on the continent for all of us especially in today's climate.

Incidentally I have seen the " supposed " staging of the chemical attack by the White Helmets - I'm still not convinced that this might just be a staging of a very dubious staging

Sorry yourself Hoola, srebrenica was 1996 500 miles away and in the Bosnia conflict, the perpetrators of the Massacre had nothing to do with Racak which was an attempt by the Serbian Police to sort out a terrorist group in the heart of Serbia.

You have had to fall back on something which happened half a decade earlier because you can't find any evidence to justify the Bombing of Serbia.

[hoolahoop]

Who’s mentioned srebrenica

Sorry I thought you had judging by Billys response to you earlier in the thread re. Russo - Serbian propaganda . Reading back I notice you didn't actually deny the tragedy that was Srebrenica happened. For those that don't know about it - over 8000 Bosnian Muslims were massacred. In the same time scale and conflict as Racak of course.

Just one amongst many reasons why the enlargement of the EU has been beneficial for security on the continent for all of us especially in today's climate.

Incidentally I have seen the " supposed " staging of the chemical attack by the White Helmets - I'm still not convinced that this might just be a staging of a very dubious staging

Sorry yourself Hoola, srebrenica was 1996 500 miles away and in the Bosnia conflict, the perpetrators of the Massacre had nothing to do with Racak which was an attempt by the Serbian Police to sort out a terrorist group in the heart of Serbia.

You have had to fall back on something which happened half a decade earlier because you can't find any evidence to justify the Bombing of Serbia.

250 miles apart / 3 years earlier , the Račak massacre was carried out by Serbian security services in Kosovo NOT  Serbia , Srebrenica by the Scorpions a paramilitary force from wait for it ....Serbia on over 8000 Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia .
There's a theme running through them both and it's called the disgraceful behaviour of the State of Serbia .

Sproty never let facts get in the way will you , half a decade = 3 1/2 years and 500 miles = 250 miles the REAL distance apart . Now unless we are talking about 2 entirely different massacres, I would say you were at best guilty of not checking your facts or at worst trying to make me look like a fool when you didn't need  to ; after all  I had already apologised to you . Why you felt the need to do that is beyond me ?

In conclusion , I have you out on location ( Kosovo is not Serbia ) , time scale , distance between locations and of course the perpetrators of both massacres.

So I have you defending Murdering Serbs as well as a   poisoning Syrian regime . Both nations have form but you would prefer to believe the former were " hard done by / bombed for no reason  " and the latter was a  " set up " potentially staged by the White Helmets 

[Sprotyrover]

So you are claiming that Radovan Karadic and general Raymond Mladic were behind both incidents?

[Sprotyrover]

Oh and Kosovo is a Province of Serbia, there are approx 1200 Serbian orthodox Churches and monasteries in Kosovo most dating back to the 13 th century.

[RedJ]

Oh and Kosovo was a Province of Serbia, there are approx 1200 Serbian orthodox Churches and monasteries in Kosovo most dating back to the 13 th century.

Fixed

[hoolahoop]

So you are claiming that Radovan Karadic and general Raymond Mladic were behind both incidents?

I don't recall putting any names to either let alone both incidents - I merely mentioned Serbia .
Thanks Red for the " WAS " correction . Serbia also thought it alone represented or WAS Yugoslavia. The same Serbia that has been Russian backed for centuries now the Russians have moved in with their buddies in Syria.

[wilts rover]

NNK

For goodness sake! Check the facts for yourself!

BAe Systems share price has NOT rocketed since last Saturday. Go and look it up!

On Friday 6 April, the day before the gassing in Douma, it was 601.8p. On Friday 13 April, the day before the missile attacks, it was 595.0p. Today it is 601.0p. Over the last 12 months it has oscillated between 535-670p. By no possible rational assessment can it be said to have been significantly affected by the raid last Saturday.

Don’t you SEE what RT’s approach is? They don’t give a shit about the truth. They want these concepts to be uncritically accepted and propagated. And you are doing that.

There’s no excuse for that. You can check the facts in seconds before you propagate lies.

I have no idea what RT say about them but check out the share price of Avon Rubber PLC. One of their subsidiaries is Avon Protection Systems (who manufacture gas masks and protection equipment for the military) and whose CEO has been quite prominent in the media recently. Purely by chance I'm sure.

[Not Now Kato]

NNK

For goodness sake! Check the facts for yourself!

BAe Systems share price has NOT rocketed since last Saturday. Go and look it up!

On Friday 6 April, the day before the gassing in Douma, it was 601.8p. On Friday 13 April, the day before the missile attacks, it was 595.0p. Today it is 601.0p. Over the last 12 months it has oscillated between 535-670p. By no possible rational assessment can it be said to have been significantly affected by the raid last Saturday.

Don’t you SEE what RT’s approach is? They don’t give a shit about the truth. They want these concepts to be uncritically accepted and propagated. And you are doing that.

There’s no excuse for that. You can check the facts in seconds before you propagate lies.

Billy, that link was sent to me in good faith, didn't have time to check it, it was late.
 
It seems that it has subsequently been edited by RT, though the word 'rocketed' is still used.