Tommy robinson

[Bentley Bullet]

As far as I'm aware you have never accepted Brexit and have been a sore loser since the vote. You've drifted from one reason to another to find a way of discrediting the result, and have patronised and been offensive to all Brexiters ranging from the immature young to the thick, greedy old bas**rds all along the way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And once again you are wrong BB. Once again you are painting the picture of what you want to react against. I don't know how many times I have to say it but for the first 9 months or so after the vote in 2016, I was entirely supportive of the decision being implemented, so long as it was done sensibly. You can find my posts on here to that effect instead of trusting your, apparently fallible, memory.

I wasn't HAPPY with it. Because I believe that even the softest of Brexits would be damaging and I'm not a hypocrite. And I certainly wasn't prepared to be lectured to by the "you lost, deal with it" brigade. Brexit was going to happen and I accepted that. But I still reserved the right to point out the consequences.

My position on accepting Brexit has changed as the circumstances have changed. Don't you review your take when things change?

By the way, you'll have to dig a long way to find me calling anyone a thick greedy old bas**rd,but you fill your boots if it makes you happy for me to be that person.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, I've looked at the start of the Brexit Threads and can't find anything supporting your claim. Maybe I've missed them. If so I apologise.

I'm sure that everyone who voted Brexit wanted it done sensibly, but I don't think everyone who voted remain did. Like I've said over and over again I believe it's been sabotaged in order to fail, and my argument with you is that you support that.

 You talk of leavers being 'had'. As ridiculous as it might sound to you, have you thought, even for one minute that it might have been you that's been had?

[Bentley Bullet]

By the way, I was in the middle of editing my post regarding the greedy old bas**rds remark because, although I wasn't quoting you, it was a bit suggestive and over the top. Next thing it said I'd had a reply, so it was pointless to edit.

[scawsby steve]

BST

This post isn't aimed at you in particular, just Remainers in general. If you look back at my reaction to the Peterborough by-election, where I wanted the Brexit Party to win, now THAT's how to be magnanimous and gracious in defeat.

It's not that difficult surely.

[Boomstick]

Funny how lefty fascists refuse point blank to acknowledge or read evidence put to them.

You can't be a lefty facist.

Facism is a right-wing political philosophy. Among its characteristics are a positive view of violence, intolerance of minorities, attacks on liberalism and toleration and promotion of a dictatorial leader. Or to put more simply - that sort of stuff Stephen Yaxley-Lennon promotes in his videos you pay for.

Again these things are easy to check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism is neither left or right.
Stalin was a fascist, a Marxist one.

Trying to silence free speech, Is a trait of fascism. Something the radical left and antifa (ironically) are good at.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
Thank you for you intention to remove that comment. Apologies for f**king it up for you!

Regarding my previous opinions on Brexit, those were from way before these lengthy Brexit threads. By the time they started, it was clear that Brexit had already been hijacked by the Right and directed towards something that had never been on the agenda in 2016.

My apologies by the way. I was wrong in saying that you'd find my opinions from 2016/17 in here. You won't because I was on sabbatical from here for the time in question. But I assure you that I was fully expecting and accepting of us leaving. What I have consistently done is to point out that if us Leaving meant us leaving the Single Market and Customs Union (which is what Leave morphed into in the 9 months AFTER the vote) and if the economic consequences of the vote were serious negative (and they have been) then people who voted Leave would be perfectly entitled to say that they'd been misled. And people who voted Remain would be perfectly entitled to remind them that they'd been misled. Because no-one (and I mean NO-ONE) on the Leave side in 2016 said anything about us going for an abrupt, Hard Brexit.

You keep on raising the issue about Remainers somehow derailing Brexit. I truly don't get you on that. There is one group of MPs more than any other that have prevented Brexit from happening. That's the DUP/ERG lot.

You cannot possibly blame the Labour party for voting down May's deal. They are led by a committed Brexiter, but had been entirely cut out of any negotiations, and had genuine ideological reasons why they could never have supported her deal (primarily because it would have slashed a whole tranche of workers' rights).

And of course, Labour and the LDs and the SNP and all my posts to you put together couldn't stop Brexit. Because the Tories and the DUP put together had a majority in Parliament.

But we WOULD have left in March if the ERG and DUP had not voted down May's deal, because her deal wasn't hard enough for them. Yet, as one who tells us he supported Remain in 2016, and has complained bitterly about Remainers wrecking Brexit, you have uttered not one word of condemnation against them.

I genuinely don't understand why that is.

And I also genuinely don't understand what you mean by my "supporting" that "sabotaging" of Brexit, when the sabotaging has been done by the Far Right. With the intention (which is what Brexit was always about) of putting Johnson into No. 10.

You reckon I supported that?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

I think BS here is doing a Queen of Hearts thing. Seems like words mean what he wants them to mean, rather than what they are commonly accepted to mean.

[wilts rover]

Funny how lefty fascists refuse point blank to acknowledge or read evidence put to them.

You can't be a lefty facist.

Facism is a right-wing political philosophy. Among its characteristics are a positive view of violence, intolerance of minorities, attacks on liberalism and toleration and promotion of a dictatorial leader. Or to put more simply - that sort of stuff Stephen Yaxley-Lennon promotes in his videos you pay for.

Again these things are easy to check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism is neither left or right.
Stalin was a fascist, a Marxist one.

Trying to silence free speech, Is a trait of fascism. Something the radical left and antifa (ironically) are good at.

Stalin may have been a fascist. Some communists try and excuse his atrocities by saying that he was a 'red facist' rather than a true communist. But that would mean he wasn't a Marxist.

You are quite right in pointing out that there are some similarities between fascism and communism (especially the authoritarian communism that was practiced by rulers like Pol Pot & Stalin) but there are even more differences. The major ones being:

communism is an international philosophy based on the works of Karl Marx that does not recognise the nation state and wants to spread the wealth of production through the whole of society (and the world)
fascism promotes the nation state and capitalist production within it

Now was Stalin a fascist or a marxist? Here is some reading to help to choose

https://www.quora.com/Was-Stalin-fascist
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Fascism_and_Socialism
https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70560
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/a0vwme/eli5why_was_stalins_ussr_not_considered_fascist/

[Not Now Kato]

Wilts.

I think BS here is doing a Queen of Hearts thing. Seems like words mean what he wants them to mean, rather than what they are commonly accepted to mean.

I thought it was Humpty Dumpty who said that, BST.  And shouldnt it be DS, (Dipstick)?

[BillyStubbsTears]

NNK

My mistake on Lewis Carrol. I never did read his stuff, the repressed paedophile that he (allegedly) was.

And no. It's definitely BS. I don't do insults like that.

[wilts rover]

Wilts.

I think BS here is doing a Queen of Hearts thing. Seems like words mean what he wants them to mean, rather than what they are commonly accepted to mean.

Mmm sort of. I don't think Boomstick is a bad lad, I think he is just misguided in the things he reads and who he takes his information from. Which is why I think it is important to challenge him on what he is saying rather than him saying it.

I will provide a factual answer to his points and I will providence evidence to back up my answer. He can come back and challenge me or he can ignore it. He can go on the alt-right message boards and ask what to say. He might change his opinion, he might not. I don't mind. But he will be provided with factual answer to contradict the lies he has been told somewhere else, which I think is a good thing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm with you on the principle Wilts. My experience is that it's not working in practice. Seems that the more evidence you present these days, the more resistance you get. Along with accusations of being patronising.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB
Thank you for you intention to remove that comment. Apologies for f**king it up for you!

Regarding my previous opinions on Brexit, those were from way before these lengthy Brexit threads. By the time they started, it was clear that Brexit had already been hijacked by the Right and directed towards something that had never been on the agenda in 2016.

My apologies by the way. I was wrong in saying that you'd find my opinions from 2016/17 in here. You won't because I was on sabbatical from here for the time in question. But I assure you that I was fully expecting and accepting of us leaving. What I have consistently done is to point out that if us Leaving meant us leaving the Single Market and Customs Union (which is what Leave morphed into in the 9 months AFTER the vote) and if the economic consequences of the vote were serious negative (and they have been) then people who voted Leave would be perfectly entitled to say that they'd been misled. And people who voted Remain would be perfectly entitled to remind them that they'd been misled. Because no-one (and I mean NO-ONE) on the Leave side in 2016 said anything about us going for an abrupt, Hard Brexit.

You keep on raising the issue about Remainers somehow derailing Brexit. I truly don't get you on that. There is one group of MPs more than any other that have prevented Brexit from happening. That's the DUP/ERG lot.

You cannot possibly blame the Labour party for voting down May's deal. They are led by a committed Brexiter, but had been entirely cut out of any negotiations, and had genuine ideological reasons why they could never have supported her deal (primarily because it would have slashed a whole tranche of workers' rights).

And of course, Labour and the LDs and the SNP and all my posts to you put together couldn't stop Brexit. Because the Tories and the DUP put together had a majority in Parliament.

But we WOULD have left in March if the ERG and DUP had not voted down May's deal, because her deal wasn't hard enough for them. Yet, as one who tells us he supported Remain in 2016, and has complained bitterly about Remainers wrecking Brexit, you have uttered not one word of condemnation against them.

I genuinely don't understand why that is.

And I also genuinely don't understand what you mean by my "supporting" that "sabotaging" of Brexit, when the sabotaging has been done by the Far Right. With the intention (which is what Brexit was always about) of putting Johnson into No. 10.

You reckon I supported that?

BST. No need to apologise for f**king up what might well have resulted in an attack from the Lilly livered snowflakes among us. I really should toughen up and care less about my carelessness.

Thanks also in admitting you were wrong in saying I'd find examples of your posts accepting the referendum result. That's another 5 minutes of my life wasted on this forum.

Of course, I can blame the Labour party for derailing Brexit. Corbyn puts power before principals and would never have agreed to any sort of deal that May achieved. Politicians from all parties contributed to making Brexit impossible, and May never had a chance.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well for one, you were looking on the wrong threads, so that 5 mins is on you buddy.


Anyway once again, you pass on the option of even mentioning how the ERG/DUP stopped us leaving in March.

Odd. Almost like you don't want to acknowledge their role at all.

[Bentley Bullet]

It's no odder than your unwillingness to acknowledge Corbyn's role in it all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You obviously haven't been reading my posts about Corbyn these past 3 years then.

I'll spell it out. Please don't think I'm being patronising, but I thought this was bleeding obvious.

Corbyn is a lifelong Brexiter.

Corbyn, bizarrely, thinks he can get to No10 by supporting Brexit, but his own Brexit.

But no Labour PM would ever support May's Brexit. Expecting them to when a) they had been entirely cut out of the negotiations (so there was no "national interest" argument, which is what you seem to think we ought to all agree on, no?) and b) the specific May Brexit was so anathema to the fundamental principles of the Labour party that it is quite ridiculous to expect them to support it.

So Corbyn has shipped his party to oppose May's Brexit deal. Which, in those circumstances, any Labour leader would have done.

But.

That whipping would have had zero effect if the ERG and DUP hadn't voted against May's deal.

There you go. My take on Corbyn.

Now. Yours on the ERG?

[Bentley Bullet]

Glad you agree with me about Corbyn. I agree with the ERG's stance about keeping a no deal Brexit on the table. I'm sure May did too if truth be known. How on earth can you bargain something when you've made a promise not to walk away from a deal no matter how bad it is?

[BillyStubbsTears]

But.

1) May tried that. Were you sleeping through 2017?

2) We were told in 2016 that it'd be the easiest negotiation ever. We held all the cards and the EU would buckle.

3) We were told by Leave in 2016 that talk of a difficult Brexit was Project Fear.

Anyway.

That's the sensible, rational response.

The instinctive one is that you don't actually believe anything of what you've said tonight.

1) You blamed Remain supporters for sabotaging Brexit.

2) But you support the people who actually voted down a Brexit that we could have had.

So the logical conclusion of 2 is that you don't actually believe 1. Because, how could you REALLY criticise Remainers (who couldn't stop Brexit) for derailing Brexit when you support the Far Right Leavers who actually DID stop Brexit?


Which leaves me wondering why you continually raise  the issue of Remainers derailing Brexit.

Almost as if you just want an argument regardless...

Goodnight.

[Bentley Bullet]

If we'd have all accepted the result and stood together we would have held all the cards.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes BB. I do believe that you do think that.

And note that I've said that I'd have taken a Norway deal. Which the majority of the country would be prepared to accept.

But that was blown out of the water by May in Jan 2017, deciding unilaterally that Brexit meant Hard Brexit.

No discussion. No checking what the country wanted. Just a decision that that was what Brexit meant.

And the consequences.

1) That meant she had no moral leverage on Labour. Because she'd ignored Labour so why should they support her?

2) By giving a sop to the Hard Right, she became their hostage. When she came back with a deal that was too hard for even a Brexiteer like Corbyn to support, she found it was too weak for Johnson and Rees-Mogg to support.

Your "Let's all hold hands and be British" idea is charmingly innocent, but it ignores what has actually happened.

And yet you STILL only criticise one side..

Almost as if...


And. Hang on.

The EU would fall over themselves to give us a Norway deal. Because it minimises the economic hit to them as well as to us. It sorts out the Irish border issue. It's not exactly win-win, cos we both end up worse than before. But it's "Respect the Vote" and "Not bad lose - not bad lose."

So.

Why would you need to support the ERG threatening Armageddon Brexit if you actually want the country to be united on a sensible Brexit?

[Bentley Bullet]

What do you mean I only criticise one side? Since when?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well in this very thread you are accusing bitter Remainer sore losers and scheming Corbynites for wrecking Brexit, but praising the tactics of the ERG and DUP despite those tactics bringing down May's deal.

If you can point me to your detailed criticism of Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc, we can bring this discussion to a close with an apology from me for having misread you.

[Bentley Bullet]

So aren't some Remainers bitter and sore losers? Surely you should know the right answer to that, being one yourself! And of course, Corbyn played a part in destroying Brexit, he wouldn't have agreed to anything May achieved.

I haven't criticised Farage, Johnson and JRM because they want to carry out what the people voted for. I agree with them that taking a no deal Brexit off the table is silly. If that's what you call praising them so be it. I call it common sense.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.
Enough. Go find someone else to bore. I've given you the benefit of the doubt but you're incapable of addressing this like an adult.

[Bentley Bullet]

Patronising to the end.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Only to though who invite it. Act like a grown up and I'll respond like a grown up. As ever.

[SydneyRover]

When you look at the two character's of Robinson and Johnson there's not a great deal of difference really except that Johnson appears to have the advantage of having rich parents and being able to wriggle out of things that would get Robinson jailed. They are both a couple of dishonest thugs really.

[SydneyRover]

What is it with the far right that they don't want to comply with the nation's laws and more importantly who are the headcases that give them money?


''Britain First fined £44,000 over electoral law breaches

Electoral Commission found defunct far-right party had failed to declare donations''

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/16/britain-first-fined-electoral-law-breaches-electoral-commission

[Boomstick]

BB.
Enough. Go find someone else to bore. I've given you the benefit of the doubt but you're incapable of addressing this like an adult.

Sounds like you conceded defeat remoaner