Labour split

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR
I've given my two pennorth previously. I'll say it again, briefly.

I KNOW Corbyn's approach to foreign policy, because I was involved in politics on the far left of the Labour party in the 1980s. And I see flashbacks to that every time he says anything on foreign policy.

He sees the world through a one dimensional Marxist filter.

There are Oppressors and Oppressed.

And what you do is ALWAYS take the side of the Oppressed. And you NEVER, EVER criticise anyone who you see as taking on the Oppressor.

Sounds great.

But it's infantile and stupid for two reasons.

1) It grotesquely over-simplifies complex problems. So the IRA bombers were freedom-fighting heroes and the Shankhill Butchers were evil, bigoted thugs.

2) It allows (nay, REQUIRES) you to ignore anything wrong that the people who you deem to be fighting an Oppressor ever does. So you ignore Russia facilitating gassing in Douma and carpet bombing Aleppo and you downplay them using nerve agents in Britain, because they are a bulwark against America. You gloss over Srebrenica, because it was carried out by friends of Moscow. You ignore Maduro's tragi-comic catastrophe because he sticks two fingers up to America. You don't condemn Hizbullah bombings because...well, Israel innit?

I'm.not exaggerating the one-dimensional nature of his foreign pivy stances. If you think I am, I hope you've read his back catalogue in depth because I'll quote you chapter and verse if you like. Not Blairite hatchet jobs. I'll give you his own words.

Finally, I don't HAVE any simple answers to those problems. That's kind of the point.

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS
"more to do with Israeli influenced mass media".

The Corbynistas are insistent on choosing this particular hill to crucify the Labour Party on.

You ARE Chris Williamson (or Ken Livingstone) and I claim my five pounds.

[RedJ]

BJW

Does Remain need to be just as was?
Maybe a remain and reform package is needed.

All is not well within the EU, as events in Hungary show.
Perhaps now is the time for a review of the way the institution works!

The polls are just a temporary barometer, which give pointers to the big data analytics of where to focus.
Folk should remember Labour improved over 20 points in the polls leading up to the last election.

One or two on here are still living in the past, when polling was the only tool in the toolbox.
Since 2010 or so, that is history.

Why would it not mean remaining as before?... if we decided to remain, we wouldn't have left any of the things we're in!

We'd lose some respect for the shit show of the last two years and we've lost EU institutions that have moved abroad in anticipation of our exit but that's it.

[roversdude]

Guys can I just say I’m really enjoying reading this debate, some excellent points being made and (in the main) without throwing stones etc.
I’ve learned a lot of facts on both sides through this.
I have to admit that I am from a labour background, but have not for years been able to vote for them due to the immigration policy

[wing commander]

   Debate is always good mate,there are a lot of different opinions on here regarding Tories,Labour and Brexit.Obviously being a Labour stronghold the majority of opinions lean that way,but it's down to individual choice,i respect everybody's views and opinions whether I agree or not..But on the whole even centre/right believers like me can have there say without receiving barrel load of abuse..lol

[Bristol Red Rover]

You ARE Chris Williamson .... and I claim my five pounds.

3 letters out. Good try though, £3.85 on it's way

[The Red Baron]

Jesus H. !

https://mobile.twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1101460965256847367?p=v

I'd never vote Labour, they are useless (as are the Tories these days) but if I did I'd be questioning whether I could after reading s**t like this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

They just can t help themselves.

Always the way of the Far Left. Proving that you're ideologically sound to your brothers and sisters is by far the most important thing you can do.

I f**king despair. We'll get shut of them eventually, but they will have done incalculable damage in the meantime. I really do wonder sometimes if these people are plants, deliberately trying to make Labour unelectable.

[wilts rover]

Hmm, Stephen Pollard, columnist for the Telegraph and Daily Mail amongst other publications - possibly not the most independent of sources on local Labour Party meetings or sympathetic to left wing causes.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/local-labour-parties-drawn-into-row-over-antisemitism-claims

It's no surprise that he doesn't mention this letter. However as some forum members also appear to have missed it here's a couple of links:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/28/labour-worst-day-shame-tom-watson-luciana-berger-resignation

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-antisemitism-letter-apology-corbyn-a8802631.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

Stephen Pollard is not the source Wilts.

And that letter is brilliant. It's fantastic that 0.25% of Labour members  have signed that. But doesn't change the self indulgent stupidity of Williamson or the Harrow CLP.

[wilts rover]

And also, to my knowledge only one person has been jailed for anti-semitic abuse of an MP (Luciana Berger). Which party do you think he was from?

Clue, it's the same party as the bloke who is due in court for harassing Anna Soubrey.

Are they making that party unelectable?

[wilts rover]

I think you will find its 45 members of Hackney North (with 35 against) according to that first Guardian link Billy. But yes, agreed, even with passions running high still there's no accounting for some peoples' stupidity at this particular point on this particular subject.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

It's really very simple and I will been banging on about this for 3 years and more.

If you want a radical left wing Govt to be elected (I do, although I shouldn't have to explicitly say that) you are going to have to accept that you've got a hell of a lot resistance to overcome.

You have to be canny enough to see how you're going to be painted, and make damn sure that you rise above it. Because, if you're going to be elected, you don't just have to convince the zealots who think the sun shines out of your arse. You have to convince waiverers and (whisper it) people who might not be committed members of the congregation who worship the Dear Leader.

You have to make sure that the message you send out is relentlessly positive on the things that will make them make their decision. You have to shut down IMMEDIATELY, self-indulgent distractions.

In simple terms, if you want a radical left Govt, you have to be the very best and most disciplined people in politics. Because every failing will be swooped on and amplified.

So what you DON'T do, is give the opposition and the Press free hits by sticking your chin out and saying "Go on. Have a pop!" If you Really want a radical Labour Govt, you don't keep on raising the issue of anti-Semitism. You shut it down.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you DO chuck out free hits to people, then co sole yourself that it's all the fault of the Press and Blairite and if it wasn't for them, the country would have voted for you.

[wilts rover]

Yes Billy, we all know you have been banging on about it - although it does seem longer than three years. But are you addressing the issue or fuelling it?

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/02/labour-party-antisemitism-israel-palestine

[wing commander]

  Now unlike some on here I don't believe in socialism,but that's my own personal opinion,but what I do want to see in my politics is strong political opposition party's because it keeps whichever Government is in power honest and unable to get a free ride..

   Left wing labour will always be up against it due to the media right I accept that but boy do they have there own self destruct button..I cant remember the last interview or report by a labour politician were they were discussing there own Policy's..They seem happy to go on Preston,sky,bbc yet end up arguing with there own colleagues,different day different people arguing amongst themselves..Whether that be the deputy leader who seems to not have a decent word to say about his own party or now Flint (who represents a lot of you) yesterday urging her fellow mp's to rebel the whip..Now that is obviously what the media want to happen,and they seem happy to walk straight into it.

Then of course you have Diane Abbot who regardless of her skin colour just seems to make things worse everytime she opens her mouth,and even amongst my many labour friends they despair at the prospect that she could actually one day be Home Secretary in charge of homeland security..

 The only message Labour are giving across right now is the impression that the upper end of the leadership are either mainly silent on anti Semitism ie Corbyn,Abbott or varying arguments on the depth of the problem..The only person fighting the Party's position on it is the shadow chancellor...

  There are people on here who are passionate about there politics and go in depth into it but the reality will always be,it's not those or the Labour party members who can put Labour into power..It's the man on the street who watches the news for half a hour a night and forms his opinion from there and if all he is seeing is labour mp's constantly constantly attacking each other, the prospects for you socialists will remain bleak..

[BillyStubbsTears]

WingCo.

Your last paragraph should be read out at the start of every Labour constituency party meeting in the country. That's precisely the issue that the Left never addresses.

[wing commander]

  haha I would be mortified if it was..

[wing commander]

  I know this is satire comedy that is flying around twitter today but there is a lot of truth in it..

"After a man is arrested for throwing an egg at Jeremy Corbyn,senior Labour MP's have come out in support of a second egg"

[The Red Baron]

So where does the Labour Left stand on this one, I'd like to know?

https://mobile.twitter.com/PeterTatchell/status/1102623505110188032

That's the problem when you think Identity Politics is the way forward.

[wing commander]

  Another day,another Labour Mp feeling the need to air her grieviances in public by publishing her letter to Corbyn on socialmedia and currently doing a round of interviews with all the news channels about her lack of trust in disciplinary matters on anti Semitism. Step forward Margaret Hodges...
  Death by a thousand cuts!!

[Bristol Red Rover]

What's remarkable is the lack of height of the tory story about Islamaphobioa. When you look at the incidents cited, and then look at the "anti semitism" cited in the Labour stories, the tory racism is off the planet.

And watch the tory flat denials of it - cue guffaw - and the media flopping back to it's other stories. It's sick.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

And your point is? Surely not that the media, mainly, are sympathetic to the Tories and viciously aggressive towards a left-wing party?

If you complain about that, you're being self-indulgent. That's a given. Labour start off on an unfair playing field. Which is why it's doubly important that Labour don't give free hits.

I left the Labour party when Tony Blair became leader. But Blair didn't emerge from nowhere. He came after 15 years of the likes of me whining that the media weren't fair to Labour and convincing ourselves that we were right and they were wrong.

My concern from the very start of Corbyn-mania was that he and his inner circle didn't have the discipline to shut stories down. In his very first few days as leader, the media was dominated about stories of whether he would now before the Queen. And he mumbled and prevaricated before saying that he would. Stupid, self inflicted injury the looked like a hypocrite at the end of it, because he'd given in to pressure to say yes when every twitch of his face was saying no. That was an entirely foreseeable kerfuffle and the fact that it dragged on for a week instead of being shut down with a clear, firm answer (either way) has set the tone for everything from Brexit to Syria to Salisbury to anti-Semitism. The issues drag on through the media with Corbyn never taking control of them, and him looking weak.

They place ideological positioning over controlling the media agenda. There might be some virtue to that, but if you act that way, complaining about the media is nothing but self indulgent whining.

[wilts rover]

The thing is tho Billy, the problem here isn't the media - its other people in the Labour Party. The emails that are in the newspapers - they were internal emails to a select group of officials.

Hodge giving her interview - she didn't mention that Corbyn's team had asked for increased punishment in some cases - or that when Formby took over she ceased to involve them (Corbyn's team) and brought in a new process. Not that Margaret Hodge might have a long standing grudge against Corbyn just because she led the first attempt to remove him. And appears to have forgotten how many times they voted together on motions against anti-semitism.

Labour has a problem with anti-semities in the party.

Anti-semitism is being used by Corbyn's enemies in Labour to discredit him.

It is possible for both those things to be true at the same time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I agree entirely Wilts. But you're doing the Whataboutery thing again.

The leadership could and should have shut this down immediately. But they don't. They prevaricate. They ignore. They dissemble. They put ideological positioning above pragmatic politics.

Time after time after time.

If they didn't do that, there wouldn't be fertilizer for the malcontents to grow in.

And then there's the other point. Complaining about people having a pop at the leadership is a bit rich, coming from the Corbyn left. That's the other point I was making more than 3 years ago. His entire political life has embodied the "My personal beliefs are more important than fealty to the leadership" approach. Fine. That's a principled stance. But it can work the other way.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BST is correct, rightly or wrongly Tories get bad press they do something about it - immediately they suspended some people, just last week Labour stumbled through and that opens them up to "Corbyn protects his friends etc". 

Equally Corbyn doesn't help himself when he has his family and close friends employed on good salaries and doing things his policies actually object to.  It's almost like they want not to win.

[Ldr]

I went to school with one of them......

[albie]

BST is correct, rightly or wrongly Tories get bad press they do something about it - immediately they suspended some people, just last week Labour stumbled through and that opens them up to "Corbyn protects his friends etc". 

Equally Corbyn doesn't help himself when he has his family and close friends employed on good salaries and doing things his policies actually object to.  It's almost like they want not to win.

Sorry BFYP, I just don't get this.

The Islamophobia in the blue party has been a festering sore for years, and they have done nothing about it for the same length of time. This is why Warsi has felt the need to call it out.

What is this about Corbyn having family and friends "on good salaries"?

How far does this nepotism reach....it is not like Theresa's Philip has business interests that will benefit from Government policy, is it?

[wilts rover]

Hmm. the Zac Goldsmith mayoral campaign - who was suspended for that? Or Boris Johnson for his comments? Someone has different measures for speedily sorting out offensive complaints than I do...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Goldsmith's London Mayor campaign was an absolute disgrace. Putting a picture of the 7/7 bombings on an article about the "danger" of electing a Muslim is the lowest I've ever seen UK politics get.

[wilts rover]

Yeah but the Tories did something about it. They made him an MP. Twice.