17500

[Copps is Magic]

Tonight 17500 Spurs fans are standing in their new South Stand which is essentially designed as safe standing.

Overdue for the law to finally change in the UK.

[since-1969]

Makes a mockery of the safety rules .

[Copps is Magic]

I agree, it does. And rightly so. If basically all the UK football authorities, the football clubs themselves, nearly all fan groups support it and football clubs are just building versions of safe standing anyway...

..The laws become dramatically behind the times.

[anton123]

The tv commentators are even calling it the wall , like Dortmund’s all standing behind the net

[drfchound]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

[Copps is Magic]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be the whole stand would it? It can be the top half, two middle blocks - whatever configuration you want really

[idler]

It is a bit more complicated than that though.
If the middle blocks stood the end blocks wouldn't be able to see to one side because of those stood to one side of them.
The only way would have to be the back half stood right the way across.

[RoversAlias]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

Is that the end of the world though? The rest of the Keepmoat is hardly full to the brim and the view isn't really much different from elsewhere.

As you know I sit in a similar area to yourself Hound and personally would be perfectly happy to move in the event they made the South Stand a standing area, providing I wasn't forced to pay more at least.

[Copps is Magic]

It is a bit more complicated than that though.
If the middle blocks stood the end blocks wouldn't be able to see to one side because of those stood to one side of them.
The only way would have to be the back half stood right the way across.

You'd have to test different options clearly. But I wouldn't be surprised if those sat either side could still see perfectly because the keepmoat pitch is so far away from the stand.

[drfchound]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

Is that the end of the world though? The rest of the Keepmoat is hardly full to the brim and the view isn't really much different from elsewhere.

As you know I sit in a similar area to yourself Hound and personally would be perfectly happy to move in the event they made the South Stand a standing area, providing I wasn't forced to pay more at least.

I am fortunate enough to still be ok to stand if I had to but choose to sit for most of the game.
However, on the days when we have “big games” there is often the late rush of people who come in at kick off time and stand in the aisles and even in the bottom rows, obstructing the view of people who have been in their seats for half an hour.
If there were designated standing areas, and I am not against it, on those big game days, the latecomers would still overspill into other areas.

If we get promotion there will inevitably be more big games so the issues will still be there.

It is my understanding that seats in the other two stands are more expensive than in the South and while that is not a problem for me, it would be a problem if I was forced to move because my preference is to be behind the goal.
In your case I doubt very much that you would be allowed to move for no price increase.

[Padge_DRFC]

How did you all cope at Belle Vue? Or did you all start supporting Rovers when the Keepmoat opened?

[drfchound]

How did you all cope at Belle Vue? Or did you all start supporting Rovers when the Keepmoat opened?

I first went to BV in 1962 and I know that many other posters on here are long standing Rovers fans.
When did you first go?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It is a bit more complicated than that though.
If the middle blocks stood the end blocks wouldn't be able to see to one side because of those stood to one side of them.
The only way would have to be the back half stood right the way across.

You'd have to test different options clearly. But I wouldn't be surprised if those sat either side could still see perfectly because the keepmoat pitch is so far away from the stand.

We already have tested it. Idler is right. It's one of the reasons we made the South Stand unreserved to enable those we prefer to stand  to do so, as long as they congregate towards the back. Also why we don't allow it to fill to capacity to allow people to move. In the event safe standing is granted officially, If anyone is unable, or unwilling to stand, as said, there's plenty of alternatives. More alternatives to what there was at Belle Vue when the Popside was all terracing.

[idler]

I usually sit in the west stand seat G538. This has an aisle on my left that I can stick my bad leg out into.
At one time this was classed as category C as far as the aisle.
This changed about 2 seasons ago and is now category B.
Were the south stand to become all standing then you would have to pay more.

[silent majority]

Tonight 17500 Spurs fans are standing in their new South Stand which is essentially designed as safe standing.

Overdue for the law to finally change in the UK.

Makes a mockery of the safety rules .

No it doesn't. When Spurs were designing the stadium they decided to include a section of seats that had rails fitted in anticipation of a change to the Green Guide. The GG eventually changed late last year and seats with rails fitted are perfectly safe and accepted as such by the Sports Ground Safety Authority.

I must stress though this isn't a safe standing area. It's an area of seats which have rails fitted, which is a significant difference to the rail seats which have been fitted elsewhere.

[silent majority]

Tonight 17500 Spurs fans are standing in their new South Stand which is essentially designed as safe standing.

Overdue for the law to finally change in the UK.

Unfortunately this Tory government have gone back on their word from last year, and the announcement today about the Duckenfield trial will only add to that delay.

[silent majority]

I usually sit in the west stand seat G538. This has an aisle on my left that I can stick my bad leg out into.
At one time this was classed as category C as far as the aisle.
This changed about 2 seasons ago and is now category B.
Were the south stand to become all standing then you would have to pay more.

Not sure why that would make the South Stand dearer. The SS is classed as Cat C for early bird season tickets, there's no reason why that would change.

[silent majority]

It is a bit more complicated than that though.
If the middle blocks stood the end blocks wouldn't be able to see to one side because of those stood to one side of them.
The only way would have to be the back half stood right the way across.

You'd have to test different options clearly. But I wouldn't be surprised if those sat either side could still see perfectly because the keepmoat pitch is so far away from the stand.

We already have tested it. Idler is right. It's one of the reasons we made the South Stand unreserved to enable those we prefer to stand  to do so, as long as they congregate towards the back. Also why we don't allow it to fill to capacity to allow people to move. In the event safe standing is granted officially, If anyone is unable, or unwilling to stand, as said, there's plenty of alternatives. More alternatives to what there was at Belle Vue when the Popside was all terracing.

One of the options would be to adopt the approach that Cardiff have done at their stadium where standing takes up a 'V'section. This allows the blocks on either side to see perfectly.

[idler]

I usually sit in the west stand seat G538. This has an aisle on my left that I can stick my bad leg out into.
At one time this was classed as category C as far as the aisle.
This changed about 2 seasons ago and is now category B.
Were the south stand to become all standing then you would have to pay more.

Not sure why that would make the South Stand dearer. The SS is classed as Cat C for early bird season tickets, there's no reason why that would change.

Sorry Martin, I didn't make it clear.
I mean it would be dearer to move to a seat elsewhere in another stand, rather than stand.
As a matter of interest, has the club looked into the cost of installing safe standing in the south stand?
Do we know how long it would take to get a return on the investment of implementing it were it allowed?

[silent majority]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

Is that the end of the world though? The rest of the Keepmoat is hardly full to the brim and the view isn't really much different from elsewhere.

As you know I sit in a similar area to yourself Hound and personally would be perfectly happy to move in the event they made the South Stand a standing area, providing I wasn't forced to pay more at least.

I am fortunate enough to still be ok to stand if I had to but choose to sit for most of the game.
However, on the days when we have “big games” there is often the late rush of people who come in at kick off time and stand in the aisles and even in the bottom rows, obstructing the view of people who have been in their seats for half an hour.
If there were designated standing areas, and I am not against it, on those big game days, the latecomers would still overspill into other areas.

If we get promotion there will inevitably be more big games so the issues will still be there.

It is my understanding that seats in the other two stands are more expensive than in the South and while that is not a problem for me, it would be a problem if I was forced to move because my preference is to be behind the goal.
In your case I doubt very much that you would be allowed to move for no price increase.

But introducing a safe standing section would eliminate this problem. What we currently have are regulations that don't make any sense to anybody. They've introduced the all seater rule expecting supporters to get used to it, they haven't. They've also found themselves in a situation where they can't enforce the ground regulations.

If clubs are then allowed to introduce standing areas it's perfectly reasonable to expect supporters who are not in those areas to sit down. This has happened at all grounds where standing sections have been allowed and it's worked so far.

I fail to see how the current situation as you describe it would equate to having official standing areas.

[silent majority]

I usually sit in the west stand seat G538. This has an aisle on my left that I can stick my bad leg out into.
At one time this was classed as category C as far as the aisle.
This changed about 2 seasons ago and is now category B.
Were the south stand to become all standing then you would have to pay more.

Not sure why that would make the South Stand dearer. The SS is classed as Cat C for early bird season tickets, there's no reason why that would change.

Sorry Martin, I didn't make it clear.
I mean it would be dearer to move to a seat elsewhere in another stand, rather than stand.
As a matter of interest, has the club looked into the cost of installing safe standing in the south stand?
Do we know how long it would take to get a return on the investment of implementing it were it allowed?

I usually sit in the west stand seat G538. This has an aisle on my left that I can stick my bad leg out into.
At one time this was classed as category C as far as the aisle.
This changed about 2 seasons ago and is now category B.
Were the south stand to become all standing then you would have to pay more.

Not sure why that would make the South Stand dearer. The SS is classed as Cat C for early bird season tickets, there's no reason why that would change.

Sorry Martin, I didn't make it clear.
I mean it would be dearer to move to a seat elsewhere in another stand, rather than stand.
As a matter of interest, has the club looked into the cost of installing safe standing in the south stand?
Do we know how long it would take to get a return on the investment of implementing it were it allowed?

OK, I see that now. Moving out of the SS would incur an increase, but nobody's suggesting that we make everybody in the SS stand, there will still be seats available.

What DBZR is describing is how we made the seating area in the SS unreserved to give people the flexibility to move and therefore allowing the 'standers' to congregate together, which from what I can see currently occurs.

There are changes to the current GG which does give us options but none will come without any significant cost at the moment. What we're waiting for is the government to give the OK on the current proposal which is to let clubs and the local authorities, through the SAG, decide which of their stadiums and which sections of their stadiums can be converted. Rather than the government issuing a national instruction that standing is now safe we await the decision to refer it to a local level.

[RoversAlias]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

Is that the end of the world though? The rest of the Keepmoat is hardly full to the brim and the view isn't really much different from elsewhere.

As you know I sit in a similar area to yourself Hound and personally would be perfectly happy to move in the event they made the South Stand a standing area, providing I wasn't forced to pay more at least.

I am fortunate enough to still be ok to stand if I had to but choose to sit for most of the game.
However, on the days when we have “big games” there is often the late rush of people who come in at kick off time and stand in the aisles and even in the bottom rows, obstructing the view of people who have been in their seats for half an hour.
If there were designated standing areas, and I am not against it, on those big game days, the latecomers would still overspill into other areas.

If we get promotion there will inevitably be more big games so the issues will still be there.

It is my understanding that seats in the other two stands are more expensive than in the South and while that is not a problem for me, it would be a problem if I was forced to move because my preference is to be behind the goal.
In your case I doubt very much that you would be allowed to move for no price increase.

Very good points Hound, particularly on the overspill.

My thought on the pricing was, if they made the entire South Stand a standing area (unlikely I know) then STH in the South, like myself and my Dad, who cannot or do not wish to have a standing ST, should at that point be allowed to move to a seated area for no extra cost since they/we would be being forced out of our Cat C place. Hypothetical and based on many factors I know.

Let's see if it happens in the next few years. I think it would help the atmosphere and would like to see something like that implemented, but would be moving to a different part of the ground myself.

[drfchound]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

Is that the end of the world though? The rest of the Keepmoat is hardly full to the brim and the view isn't really much different from elsewhere.

As you know I sit in a similar area to yourself Hound and personally would be perfectly happy to move in the event they made the South Stand a standing area, providing I wasn't forced to pay more at least.

I am fortunate enough to still be ok to stand if I had to but choose to sit for most of the game.
However, on the days when we have “big games” there is often the late rush of people who come in at kick off time and stand in the aisles and even in the bottom rows, obstructing the view of people who have been in their seats for half an hour.
If there were designated standing areas, and I am not against it, on those big game days, the latecomers would still overspill into other areas.

If we get promotion there will inevitably be more big games so the issues will still be there.

It is my understanding that seats in the other two stands are more expensive than in the South and while that is not a problem for me, it would be a problem if I was forced to move because my preference is to be behind the goal.
In your case I doubt very much that you would be allowed to move for no price increase.

But introducing a safe standing section would eliminate this problem. What we currently have are regulations that don't make any sense to anybody. They've introduced the all seater rule expecting supporters to get used to it, they haven't. They've also found themselves in a situation where they can't enforce the ground regulations.

If clubs are then allowed to introduce standing areas it's perfectly reasonable to expect supporters who are not in those areas to sit down. This has happened at all grounds where standing sections have been allowed and it's worked so far.

I fail to see how the current situation as you describe it would equate to having official standing areas.

My point is SM that I have no problem at all with there being a safe standing area in the SS, but that if that was full and the usual suspects turn up at three o clock then they would just overspill into the aisles and seating areas, as they do now.
Have you ever been in the SS when that has happened?

The stewards don’t or are unable to take action to move them because they simply won’t go.
There have been too many latecomers resisting and not enough stewards or efforts by stewards to physically move them on.

At the Palace game the aisles were packed from halfway to the top and there were many standers in the lower front seating area, as I described above.

[silent majority]

If DRFC turned the South Stand into a standing area there would be lots of regulars in there currently who would have to move.
Plenty of older or infirm people plus little kids who just would not be tall enough to see the game.

Is that the end of the world though? The rest of the Keepmoat is hardly full to the brim and the view isn't really much different from elsewhere.

As you know I sit in a similar area to yourself Hound and personally would be perfectly happy to move in the event they made the South Stand a standing area, providing I wasn't forced to pay more at least.

I am fortunate enough to still be ok to stand if I had to but choose to sit for most of the game.
However, on the days when we have “big games” there is often the late rush of people who come in at kick off time and stand in the aisles and even in the bottom rows, obstructing the view of people who have been in their seats for half an hour.
If there were designated standing areas, and I am not against it, on those big game days, the latecomers would still overspill into other areas.

If we get promotion there will inevitably be more big games so the issues will still be there.

It is my understanding that seats in the other two stands are more expensive than in the South and while that is not a problem for me, it would be a problem if I was forced to move because my preference is to be behind the goal.
In your case I doubt very much that you would be allowed to move for no price increase.

But introducing a safe standing section would eliminate this problem. What we currently have are regulations that don't make any sense to anybody. They've introduced the all seater rule expecting supporters to get used to it, they haven't. They've also found themselves in a situation where they can't enforce the ground regulations.

If clubs are then allowed to introduce standing areas it's perfectly reasonable to expect supporters who are not in those areas to sit down. This has happened at all grounds where standing sections have been allowed and it's worked so far.

I fail to see how the current situation as you describe it would equate to having official standing areas.

My point is SM that I have no problem at all with there being a safe standing area in the SS, but that if that was full and the usual suspects turn up at three o clock then they would just overspill into the aisles and seating areas, as they do now.
Have you ever been in the SS when that has happened?

The stewards don’t or are unable to take action to move them because they simply won’t go.
There have been too many latecomers resisting and not enough stewards or efforts by stewards to physically move them on.

At the Palace game the aisles were packed from halfway to the top and there were many standers in the lower front seating area, as I described above.

You're missing my point.

You're talking about allowing standing in a seated area, that's not the same thing. Standing in a seated area takes up more space than standing in an area that's devoted to standing. Therefore we will be allowing standing in an area that's designed for standing with a limit on the numbers.

It's also about choice, currently there is none. When standing is allowed in areas designed for standing then those supporters have to buy a ticket for that area. There won't be an unreserved area which will allow people to make up their minds on the day as to where they go and whether to stand or not. Each standing position has an allocated area, therefore without a ticket for that area standing won't be allowed.

As I said earlier it works at other grounds with allocated standing areas without impacting on the seated areas, I fail to see why the Keepmoat will be any different.

[RedJ]

By allocated area do you mean effectively allocated seating or like an allocated 'block' when you talk about tickets?

[silent majority]

By allocated area do you mean effectively allocated seating or like an allocated 'block' when you talk about tickets?

Yes. It's exactly the same.

It's partly security, but mostly safety. If you have a standing area that can accept 1,000 supporters then you don't want 1,200 trying to gain access to that area, therefore each person will have an allocated space to stand in.

[idler]

I can see some arguments there with some of our fans arriving on or after kick off.
Common sense certainly needs to prevail.

[drfchound]

By allocated area do you mean effectively allocated seating or like an allocated 'block' when you talk about tickets?

Yes. It's exactly the same.

It's partly security, but mostly safety. If you have a standing area that can accept 1,000 supporters then you don't want 1,200 trying to gain access to that area, therefore each person will have an allocated space to stand in.

If that is the case then and it is policed properly it shouldn’t be an issue.

[silent majority]

By allocated area do you mean effectively allocated seating or like an allocated 'block' when you talk about tickets?

Yes. It's exactly the same.

It's partly security, but mostly safety. If you have a standing area that can accept 1,000 supporters then you don't want 1,200 trying to gain access to that area, therefore each person will have an allocated space to stand in.

If that is the case then and it is policed properly it shouldn’t be an issue.

It's not an issue in any other stadium, so I can't see it being a problem in ours either. Of course its all hypothetical as it ain't happening any time soon.

[Bristol Red Rover]

OK, I see that now. Moving out of the SS would incur an increase, but nobody's suggesting that we make everybody in the SS stand, there will still be seats available.

What DBZR is describing is how we made the seating area in the SS unreserved to give people the flexibility to move and therefore allowing the 'standers' to congregate together, which from what I can see currently occurs.

There are changes to the current GG which does give us options but none will come without any significant cost at the moment. What we're waiting for is the government to give the OK on the current proposal which is to let clubs and the local authorities, through the SAG, decide which of their stadiums and which sections of their stadiums can be converted. Rather than the government issuing a national instruction that standing is now safe we await the decision to refer it to a local level.

I'm not grasping this "seat for life" concept. It's not so much you being moved as you choosing to move as circumstances change.

I think the Stadium should begin to develop so as it's more varied in facilities and character. Part of this may be developing a Cat C seating area beyond the South Stand, maybe the southern part of the west? This could be decided at the same time as announcing the safe standing implimentation, thus giving you the option to move there.

Another option may be offering a Cat B seat for a reduced price for a number of years (3?). A permanent low price, or Cat C price, is unreasonably pushing it IMO. Back to that idea that things in life change, all the way up to that moment of death where you won't be getting any subsidised extra life years.

Or as has been suggested elsewhere, the SS may never be all standing, so you can just shuffle along a bit.