Well done Sadiq Khan for setting the facts straight.

[SydneyRover]

''It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump''

''Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than seventy years. Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but are using new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago''

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

[scawsby steve]

''It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump''

''Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than seventy years. Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but are using new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago''

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

Just accept it Sydney, the EU is going to collapse like a pack of cards.

[SydneyRover]

''It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump''

''Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than seventy years. Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but are using new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago''

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

Just accept it Sydney, the EU is going to collapse like a pack of cards.

Had we known that there was going to be a push to let the facists run the joint we could have saved a lot lot of bother and joined Germany before the second world war, maybe the royal family were right after all.

[Herbert Anchovy]

''It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump''

''Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than seventy years. Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but are using new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago''

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

Just accept it Sydney, the EU is going to collapse like a pack of cards.

Had we known that there was going to be a push to let the facists run the joint we could have saved a lot lot of bother and joined Germany before the second world war, maybe the royal family were right after all.

Maybe you should ask yourself why so many people across Europe feel so disenfranchised by the EU that they're voting for populist politicians.

[SydneyRover]

''It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump''

''Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than seventy years. Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but are using new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago''

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

Just accept it Sydney, the EU is going to collapse like a pack of cards.

Had we known that there was going to be a push to let the facists run the joint we could have saved a lot lot of bother and joined Germany before the second world war, maybe the royal family were right after all.

Maybe you should ask yourself why so many people across Europe feel so disenfranchised by the EU that they're voting for populist politicians.

Oh I do HA, and I also ask myself why otherwise normal people vote for these morons when it's clearly against their own interests, maybe the last bit is the bit they don't get?

(mod) When farage and his ilk press the right buttons those that accept the rubbish don't appear to want to check out the facts nor read an alternate view before jumping on the bandwagon. Is this because they are happy to have their views confirmed or don't want to be out of step with those they live and or  socialise with?
Look at the debate about the 'bus' it's as plain as black and white (red really) but now we are asked to believe someone has gone around and photoshopped all the photos and videos on the internet, everywhere.

[Sprotyrover]

Oh I do HA, and I also ask myself why otherwise normal people vote for these morons when it's clearly against their own interests, maybe the last bit is the bit they don't get?

You can thank idiots like the Maybot ,Corbin and his Momentum pals for the mess we are in when it comes to who gets votes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA
Hats of to the neo-fascists (and let's call a spade a spade - that's what they are, not "populists".)

They were the first ones to cotton onto his the Internet has revolutionised getting political messages out there.

That video from Farage's Leave.EU that I posted the other day. Utterly shot through with dishonesty and lies both in content and intent. There would have been no way of pushing that in people's faces a decade or so ago. Now you can do it with the click of a button and hundreds of thousands of people will see it, share it, and have their prejudices and ignorant hatreds reinforced by it.

The Far right saw that possibility before anyone else. Steve Bannon in particular has sat at the centre of that sort of mendacious lie peddling and he's taught mini-me's across Europe how to benefit from it.

It's a frightening development and people who genuinely care about democracy have a duty to challenge it every step of the way, not pander to it or copy it.

[Bentley Bullet]

Is it only Farage's lot that gets political messages out there through the internet?

Maybe if he could have spent nye on £6.5 million of our money on leaflets delivered to every household across the UK, detailing untrue scaremongering, instead, he would have.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Deep breath again.

BB.
No. Of course it's not only Farage who puts information out on the Internet. But the Far Right (Bannon leading the way) has been very sharp in realising the opportunities to shovel lies into more or less sealed echo chambers where they are accepted because they support what the readers want to hear.

That video I posted a couple of days ago which has been studiously ignored by Leave supporters here is the latest example. Find me an example of a similar deception on a matter of unarguable, established fact, not a prediction, by an official campaigner who is not of the Far Right.

2) What were those lies in that leaflet? List them please.

[Bentley Bullet]

I can't be arsed to list those lies again, so imagine this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

There's only 7 pages of big font text on that leaflet. It takes 5 mins to read.

Have a look and point out the lies on it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiqk9jP6sriAhW7TxUIHWB6ChgQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2vwlBk5mBWzwPDSS3zhlGQ

Or if that's too hard, tell me what you think about Farage's organisation doctoring that video in order to mislead the gullible. Or find me a similar example from anyone other than the Far Right.

[Bentley Bullet]

"A once in a generation decision"

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

And had Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Francois etc not voted against May, we'd now have left.

That was a stupid comment, I'll give you that. Because, as anyone who knows anything about politics would know, no Govt can tie the hands of a future Govt.

Now. That video?

[Bentley Bullet]

https://spiritbodysoul.com/lies-in-hmg-leaflet-eu-referendum/

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
You're embarrassing yourself. You've scratted around the internet to find someone who thinks there were lies in that leaflet.

His first claim of a misleading statement is the statement that we won't join the Euro.

Yes, technically he is correct, as I said, in that no Govt can bind the hands of a future Govt. But if you're saying that because of that, anything that any Govt proposes is misleading, then you're paralysed.

That entire article reads like it's been written by a 6th form politics student.

Now. That video?

[Bentley Bullet]

So anything that leaflet the government sent out states is only binding as long as that government remains in power!

Just as I expected. More b*llocks from you!

[RedJ]

So anything that leaflet the government sent out states is only binding as long as that government remains in power!

Well, er, yes... unless enshrined in law. I thought that would be obvious?

Even then, laws can be changed by future governments.

[Bentley Bullet]

So the promises in the leaflet were guaranteed right up to the day after the referendum!

[BillyStubbsTears]

So anything that leaflet the government sent out states is only binding as long as that government remains in power!

BB.

Of course! That IS how our system works! You wouldn't have wanted the Govt to patronise you by writing footnotes explaining that would you?

So anyway. That video? I'm guessing you're perfectly happy with it, given that you are quick to scream "Not fair!" when things upset you.

[Bentley Bullet]

Yes, I would have wanted Cameron to admit he would resign if the vote went leave, instead of lying by saying he would carry on and see the job through. That way the guarantee of what the leaflet said wouldn't have run out the day after the election.

[BillyStubbsTears]

But that would have been stupid wouldn't it BB?

Because then, the vote wouldn't have been a referendum on the EU. It would have become a referendum on Cameron as PM.

The democratic process requires a certain level of adult sophistication. It's complex. It's difficult.

If course you CAN just stamp your foot and scream, "But you said, you said, you SAID!!" if you want, but that would be a bit embarrassing wouldn't it?

Now. That video? You're obviously not THAT upset about being manipulated, lied to and treated like an idiot, or you'd be up in arms about that. The fact that you've said nothing speaks volumes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So, we can summarise this latest depressing exchange BB.

You get really angry about someone making what you consider to be promises that you knew they couldn't commit to. Although the things they "promised" would and wouldn't happen actually have and have not happened.

But when another group deliberately and brazenly lie to you about something which is utterly unarguable, you don't even bat an eyelid.

Very odd. Almost as if you're not actually that bothered about truth and lies at all.

[albie]

The deliberate attempts to mislead are one thing, and appear to have found an audience wanting to be misled.

Aside from the core Leave/no deal message, some are not looking at what else comes with Farage.
As an example, Farrago is keen on a USA style insurance system for healthcare.

Now, I might be wrong......but I will bet many of those supporting Nige strongly disagree with breaking up the NHS!

About time Nige put up a costed programme of policy measures for consideration.
You can't reasonably vote for what you don't know....can you?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

It's not just a "thing".

It's pretty fundamental to the concept of democracy.

Enemies of democracy, whether from the right or the left, start by attacking the concept of objective truth.

That's the point I'm trying, albeit hamfistedly, to make when talking about that video.

Predictions and interpretations of scenarios are the bread and butter of politics. Mature people consider them in that context.

Out and out lying is a totally different thing. It has been very rare in democracies since the War. But its becoming normalised now and anyone who cares about democracy has to fight against that normalisation.

That Leave.EU video should scare the living shite out of any democrat. The thought that a serious political organisation in 2019 would lie so brazenly and obviously and knowingly, and that people would lap it up is, frankly, terrifying for the future of our politics.

[Bentley Bullet]

Because then, the vote wouldn't have been a referendum on the EU. It would have become a referendum on Cameron as PM.

Of course, it would. Still no excuse for being a liar though. It still meant they (Cameron and Osborne) had no intention of carrying out the threats they made. If that's wasn't scaremongering I don't know what is.



If course you CAN just stamp your foot and scream, "But you said, you said, you SAID!!" if you want, but that would be a bit embarrassing wouldn't it?

It is embarrassing, yet you continue to do so.



Now. That video? You're obviously not THAT upset about being manipulated, lied to and treated like an idiot, or you'd be up in arms about that. The fact that you've said nothing speaks volumes.

It hasn't upset me, I haven't seen it. Why should I watch your one sided biased selection of videos?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Night night BB. Night night.

[albie]

BST,

Yes, I know that.
Read my post again, I agree with you on this.

Elephant in the room is that Trump/Farage/Boris change the terms of political dialogue across the board.

So Trump/Farage can deny climate change, not because of the evidence, but in spite of it. The truth becomes a pliable commodity to pitch to the prejudice of the listener.

It is a post enlightenment moment...a reversion to tribalism and rejection of the scientific consensus.

[Bentley Bullet]

So, we can summarise this latest depressing exchange BB.

You get really angry about someone making what you consider to be promises that you knew they couldn't commit to. Although the things they "promised" would and wouldn't happen actually have and have not happened.

But when another group deliberately and brazenly lie to you about something which is utterly unarguable, you don't even bat an eyelid.

Very odd. Almost as if you're not actually that bothered about truth and lies at all.

Oh I'm bothered about truth and lies. The difference in me and you is you go looking for lies on the side of Brexiters, in an attempt to discredit and derail a democratic vote, whereas I go looking for lies on the side of Remainers, in an attempt to balance the argument.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I agree with all that Albie. Apologies for misreading your post. I thought you were downplaying the approach as being less of concern than the policy content. For me, they go hand in hand.

That's why that video that I don't believe BB hasn't watched is so worrying. The policy (to weaponise people's grievances against the EU) goes hand in hand with the style of communication (simply lie about the actions and intentions of the EU representatives).

I accept that there is a minority of people who don't care about being lied to like this, as long as their side wins. But I'm certain that it IS a minority. I believe that most people have enough pride in themselves and enough moral backbone to reject the people who lie to them as brazenly as this. But it's vital that these instances are pointed out.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
How do you "balance the argument" if you point blank refuse to look at what Leave.EU are doing? You've no idea what you are "balancing".

Anyone would think that having an argument is more important to you than dealing with this maturely.