The Brexit Conumdrum

[SydneyRover]

There is a huge problem here, how to get the message across that those voting for brexit don't want to hear, it's extremely frustrating and difficult without sounding like they are being insulted and yet it's as though I/we are being baited to do just that. That brexit is being driven by multimillionaires and currency traders is real and those that voted for brexit also have real grievances but they don't match up, the grievances held by most brexit voters will not be solved by brexit in fact in most situations they will be made worse.

[DonnyOsmond]

Most people wanting to leave chose that because of Tory policies such as cuts to the NHS, you want the Tories out, not us out the EU.

[SydneyRover]

Most people wanting to leave chose that because of Tory policies such as cuts to the NHS, you want the Tories out, not us out the EU.

Exactly but when brexiters also vote tory we have a problem Houston.

[drfchound]

Most of the people I know that voted to leave did so because “they wanted control of our borders”.

[DonnyOsmond]

Most of the people I know that voted to leave did so because “they wanted control of our borders”.

https://twitter.com/maspatel01/status/1178068928985219072?s=19

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've heard people say they voted Leave because of Somali and Afghan refugees.

It truly is enough to make you weep.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Most of the people I know that voted to leave did so because “they wanted control of our borders”.

Do any of them have any ideas how to control the Irish Border? We need some that aren't impossible or imaginary.

[drfchound]

Most of the people I know that voted to leave did so because “they wanted control of our borders”.

Do any of them have any ideas how to control the Irish Border? We need some that aren't impossible or imaginary.

No because no one had thought about that being a problem at the time of the referendum.
That came to their attention afterwards.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Most of the people I know that voted to leave did so because “they wanted control of our borders”.

Do any of them have any ideas how to control the Irish Border? We need some that aren't impossible or imaginary.

No because no one had thought about that being a problem at the time of the referendum.
That came to their attention afterwards.

How do they feel about how they voted now?

[drfchound]

Quite a few have said that they would now vote to remain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Most of the people I know that voted to leave did so because “they wanted control of our borders”.

Do any of them have any ideas how to control the Irish Border? We need some that aren't impossible or imaginary.

No because no one had thought about that being a problem at the time of the referendum.
That came to their attention afterwards.

I was obviously wasting my time when I raised it before the Referendum then.

https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=257611.msg638116#msg638116

I'll admit, I missed the importance of the Customs Union, and emphasised the Single Market, but the principle stands.

The point is that there WAS a discussion about the Irish border at the time. Johnson said it was Project Fear. And clearly,from what you are saying, Leave voters just tuned it out.

[drfchound]

Well BST,  clearly I was talking about some people that I know.
I guess that they don’t read the words of wisdom that are written on the vsc forum.
If there was any discussion about the Irish border they probably hadn’t seen it or understood the significance of it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

There was a lot of discussion about the Irish border issue at the time.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/09/tony-blair-and-john-major-brexit-would-close-irish-border

Clearly the people you are talking about weren't paying attention.

There's a reason why we generally don't do Referendums in this country. You've just hit on it.

[drfchound]

Hound.

There was a lot of discussion about the Irish border issue at the time.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/09/tony-blair-and-john-major-brexit-would-close-irish-border

Clearly the people you are talking about weren't paying attention.

There's a reason why we generally don't do Referendums in this country. You've just hit on it.

Possibly so, I wouldn’t know what they had read.
I said at the time that Brexit shouldn’t have been a decision for the public at large to make because in general, we didn’t know what the possible problems getting it sorted out would be.
Maybe only well travelled people should have been involved in the vote.

[IDM]

Alternatively people should have been properly informed..

Voting leave on principle, to take back control, is all well and good and understandable.  However folks must have realised that after 40 odd years we have so many ties with the EU, both legal and practical, that leaving would be a complexing process.

When we say people are ignorant, that’s not a sleight on the character more a reflection that people are unaware of all the issues..  I certainly am.!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just to rise above the petty sniping for a while, it's instructive looking back at what politicians said in 2016.

Johnson in particular. All bluff and bluster and no comment on the detail of the problem. Just as he's always been.

It's perfectly clear in those articles who was right on the Ireland issue. May was right. Major and Blair were right.

But did you notice what Johnson (and Villiers) did? They deflected from the core of the problem, which is that the NI/Ireland border post Brexit is the border with the EU SM and CU. Instead they made an utterly irrelevant comment about the Free Travel Area.

They KNEW what the real problem was and they wanted us to be kept ignorant about it. They wanted us not to think about it.

Maybe Johnson really is the PM that the country deserves. Maybe we're not interested in properly engaging with the detail of political problems and we prefer a showman instead.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Perhaps if we got on and did it, it may well be easier....

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP

Well if the nutter wing of the Tory Party had not blocked Brexit last winter, we'd know by now wouldn't we?

[Not Now Kato]

Perhaps if we got on and did it, it may well be easier....

Got on and did what exactly, BFYP?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you come accross as someone who believes 'Brexit means Brexit'.  If so, can you telll me what Brexit means? Because no one else has been able to do so for the past 3 years.

[drfchound]

Perhaps if we got on and did it, it may well be easier....

Got on and did what exactly, BFYP?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you come accross as someone who believes 'Brexit means Brexit'.  If so, can you telll me what Brexit means? Because no one else has been able to do so for the past 3 years.

........which is another reason why the general public shouldn’t have been able to vote on such an important issue.

[wilts rover]

There is a huge problem here, how to get the message across that those voting for brexit don't want to hear, it's extremely frustrating and difficult without sounding like they are being insulted and yet it's as though I/we are being baited to do just that. That brexit is being driven by multimillionaires and currency traders is real and those that voted for brexit also have real grievances but they don't match up, the grievances held by most brexit voters will not be solved by brexit in fact in most situations they will be made worse.

To go back to Sydney's opening post, which I think is quite interesting, in my opinion there are two major issues/problems here.

The Cameron government offered a referendum where one side was defined and achievable - whilst the other left anyone wanting to vote for it to come up with their own idea of what they were voting for. And current progress would appear to suggest it is not easily defined or achievable.

Take hound's friends who wanted more control over our borders. Fair enough - but did they realise this meant re-creating a border in Ireland that had been removed as part of the peace process? You might want this - but you are going to get this.

Leave should have been more defined, the referendum should have been in Remain in the EU v this new relationship with the EU.

Secondly the Remain campaign, has and to a large extent still is, 'project fear'. We can't leave the EU because these bad things will happen - and that has led to anyone who voted for these things must be stupid, etc. I have said before and will say again, if we can't leave the EU because these bad things will happen - then all that does is explain why there shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place!

What it should have been about and what it should do more of now is state the positives of EU membership. Why (most) EU regulation is good regulation, clean air, clean water, safer roads and working conditions, opportunities for Brits to go live, work or study in a different country, businesses and universities collaborating on projects that lead to jobs and investment etc.

By all means debunk the myths and lies - but there has to be a positive reason for people to vote for your side too.

[Ldr]

Most of the people I know that voted to leave did so because “they wanted control of our borders”.

Do any of them have any ideas how to control the Irish Border? We need some that aren't impossible or imaginary.

We shouldn't even be in Ireland

[BillyStubbsTears]

That doesn't really help does it, when 50-odd% of the population self identify as British.

The point is that the GFA was a work of genius that gave both communities enough of what they wanted. And it ONLY works if there is no border between NI and Ireland.

[scawsby steve]

Quite a few have said that they would now vote to remain.

It's a mixed bag Hound. A bunch of guys I stand with at half time in the South Stand concourse all voted to remain, but said they'd vote to leave if there was another referendum. They said they're all sick of it now, and just want it done.

[SydneyRover]

Quite a few have said that they would now vote to remain.

It's a mixed bag Hound. A bunch of guys I stand with at half time in the South Stand concourse all voted to remain, but said they'd vote to leave if there was another referendum. They said they're all sick of it now, and just want it done.

So if the decision was made to stay right now and it would be over would they be happy with that too?

[Not Now Kato]

Quite a few have said that they would now vote to remain.

It's a mixed bag Hound. A bunch of guys I stand with at half time in the South Stand concourse all voted to remain, but said they'd vote to leave if there was another referendum. They said they're all sick of it now, and just want it done.

Sometimes, there's no helping the brain dead of Doncaster!

[BillyStubbsTears]

I must admit, if I had to stand next to SS at half time, I'd vote to leave the stadium.

[SydneyRover]

A vote to remain in a new referendum would get it over with in an instant and satisfy all those that 'just want it done' whereas a vote to leave would not because the arrangements and agreements will take years to sort out so there is your answer guys if you just want it over and done with vote remain, vote with the good guys 

[Bentley Bullet]

Seems like the being nice to each other campaign hasn't lasted long!

[SydneyRover]

No, you can't trust politicians aye?