Bolton update

[bradford exile]

Said this before. If it had been Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Et Al. They would have had the points the next morning if not beforehand. Regards. Ray

[Lifelong supporter]

The argument about the health of young players at Bolton was bogus, pathetic and a complete red herring in my opinion.
Bolton just didn't want to lose another game and fall further behind at the foot of the table.
At the start of the 1980/81 season the age of seven of the Rovers players who were among the 11 highest league appearance makers that season were 17, 17, 19, 19, 21, 21 and 21.
At the end of the season we finished third and won promotion.
Ian Snodin and David Harle were still 17 at the end of the season but they made 35 first team appearances each.
Maybe we were all a bit tougher in those days, and maybe tennis players are much tougher now than young footballers.
Coco Gauff won four long matches inside a week at Wimbledon this year at the age of 15 but I didn't hear anyone calling in medical experts or the NSPCC.
The Football League turned it's back on Rovers when they refused to get involved during the dark days of 'Uncle' Ken Richardson.
Surely they won't do the same again.   

[since-1969]

It’s not about why the postponed it’s about if it was within the spirit of the rules by acting unilaterally. They made a choice that benefited Bolton without seeking consultation with those effected ie EFL or DRFC or advice if they even could .
If they had spoken to the EFL it would have resulted in a decision based on the rules and instead they assumed that would not be allowed under the rules and cancelled anyway . They are guilty and the EFL should stop procrastinating by allowing this none situation to create a story of indecision by creating faulse presidents. DRFC should take the matter to court NOW and ask the court to get the EFL to act within its rule and both sides to except the outcome what ever that maybe ,as they are not being considered by the backlog in fixtures that had begun to pile up . To demonstrate on how ridicules has this situation  is , that we DRFC who are out of  pocket and can not reschedule the fixture without prior  permissions from both Bolton and The EFL . How ironic is that !!

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I'm sure we're all in agreement however, not sure about the merit of court action at this stage when the Commission hasn't even sat yet or delivered it's decision. I can see clubs getting increasingly frustrated, if not angry, and looking collectively for more expedience on the matter afterall, we're approaching mid point of the season.

Not sure who's dragging their feet though, as it appears to be in the hands of the FA and blow me, when they finally set a date, it clashes with an EFL board meeting! I'm fairly sure Debbie Jeavons will play a major role in this, presenting the EFL's case to the Commission but given she was responsible for the call that got us into this mess in the first place, you wonder whether she will somehow defend her own actions.

In addition, as said above, if this had been higher profile clubs, its likely it would have been done by now!

[DRNaith]

We need to stop using the word "postponed".

It wasn't postponed

[knockers]

Do you seriously think that if someone on this forum uses the word postponed it makes any difference

[Glyn_Wigley]

It was a refusal to fulfil a fixture. And should be punished appropriately.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Do you seriously think that if someone on this forum uses the word postponed it makes any difference

It's the same as if someone refers to our old, or even current ground as Belle View.

[Donnybob]

Yes it does matter when the word postpone is used.

The word postpone means: 'cause or arrange for (something) to take place at a time later than that first scheduled'.

If you accept it was postponed, if you describe it as postponed, if you treat it as postponed, then the game must be replayed.

Cancelled, on the other hand means: 'no longer planned or scheduled; invalidated; removed.

By saying that something is 'cancelled, you are actually suggesting it no longer matters and what happens to it should no longer matter.

By not advising the authorities or the opposition, clearly the game was cancelled, which means concede, surrender, yield.

It was not postponed. Any possible claim to the points or attempt to now replay the fixture by the owners of Bolton has no merit.

Such a case is dependent on that one word. That is why it is important.

[Alan Southstand]

We’ve already got enough ‘postponed’ games to fit into our schedule, without having to pander to BWFC and their cancelled fixture!

The league table is a right old mess, when you look at who has played what. We are already 3 games in hand on Peterborough, for example, and it’s only November.

If anything, it puts even more focus on the Bolton fiasco (as that is exactly what the EFL have allowed it to become). With those 3 points rightfully awarded and (say) 3 goals added to our goal difference, we are in a comfortable position going into the Christmas/New Year schedule, unless, of course someone else cries off!

[covdrfc]

Quote from: knockers on November 07, 2019, 04:08:59 PM
Do you seriously think that if someone on this forum uses the word postponed it makes any difference


It's the same as if someone refers to our old, or even current ground as Belle View

Or referring to our record signing as Billy Sharpe

[Frankie Rennie]

Bolton fan here and can I say that having read all the previous posts I can well understand and accept the points made. I would though like to correct a few points. At the time the match should have been played our club was actually without an owner under administration and it was the administrator not the club who cancelled the game. They did so under advice from then manager Phil Parkinson regarding the EFL rules on young players. Parkinson left the club shortly afterwards. Maybe he was more interested in his own managerial record than our club or players?

Either way nobody at Wanderers was happy with the cancellation as we were improving with each game. The EFL have much to answer for in allowing a crook like Ken Anderson from owning and raping our club as he had with Southampton some years earlier and receiving an 8 year ban. There’s a much wider issue here with the EFL than this match and whichever way the EFL jumps I think legal action will result. As for Donny, I think you should have the 3 points as it was not at all your fault but of course that could spark complaint from Coventry who could only draw with us.

For what it’s worth, I believe we will recover the deficit we’ve faced and avoid relegation, even without these 3 points but finally as a fan I’d just like to say that none of us have control over who owns us. Both Bury and ourselves suffered crooks and I only hope that never happens to you but always remember that it very well could. Good luck this season anyway and I look forward to visiting the Keemoat later in the season when I expect us to get the 3 points back. ;-))

[Filo]

Bolton fan here and can I say that having read all the previous posts I can well understand and accept the points made. I would though like to correct a few points. At the time the match should have been played our club was actually without an owner under administration and it was the administrator not the club who cancelled the game. They did so under advice from then manager Phil Parkinson regarding the EFL rules on young players. Parkinson left the club shortly afterwards. Maybe he was more interested in his own managerial record than our club or players?

Either way nobody at Wanderers was happy with the cancellation as we were improving with each game. The EFL have much to answer for in allowing a crook like Ken Anderson from owning and raping our club as he had with Southampton some years earlier and receiving an 8 year ban. There’s a much wider issue here with the EFL than this match and whichever way the EFL jumps I think legal action will result. As for Donny, I think you should have the 3 points as it was not at all your fault but of course that could spark complaint from Coventry who could only draw with us.

For what it’s worth, I believe we will recover the deficit we’ve faced and avoid relegation, even without these 3 points but finally as a fan I’d just like to say that none of us have control over who owns us. Both Bury and ourselves suffered crooks and I only hope that never happens to you but always remember that it very well could. Good luck this season anyway and I look forward to visiting the Keemoat later in the season when I expect us to get the 3 points back. ;-))

It has happened to us, we lost our league status, none of you lot cared then, I’m sure a further points deduction will ensure your deserved relegation. The administrators were default owners

[roversdude]

Whilst I feel for the genuine fan there has been some shite directed at us from over the hills for daring to suggest we should get the points.
I’m glad you’ve survived but given a choice of saving only one of the clubs in turmoil, my vote would have gone to Bury.
Unfortunately Bolton lost a lot of respect years ago trying to get a closed shop for PL

[IDM]

Bolton fan here and can I say that having read all the previous posts I can well understand and accept the points made. I would though like to correct a few points. At the time the match should have been played our club was actually without an owner under administration and it was the administrator not the club who cancelled the game. They did so under advice from then manager Phil Parkinson regarding the EFL rules on young players. Parkinson left the club shortly afterwards. Maybe he was more interested in his own managerial record than our club or players?

Either way nobody at Wanderers was happy with the cancellation as we were improving with each game. The EFL have much to answer for in allowing a crook like Ken Anderson from owning and raping our club as he had with Southampton some years earlier and receiving an 8 year ban. There’s a much wider issue here with the EFL than this match and whichever way the EFL jumps I think legal action will result. As for Donny, I think you should have the 3 points as it was not at all your fault but of course that could spark complaint from Coventry who could only draw with us.

For what it’s worth, I believe we will recover the deficit we’ve faced and avoid relegation, even without these 3 points but finally as a fan I’d just like to say that none of us have control over who owns us. Both Bury and ourselves suffered crooks and I only hope that never happens to you but always remember that it very well could. Good luck this season anyway and I look forward to visiting the Keemoat later in the season when I expect us to get the 3 points back. ;-))

Thank you for posting.

It’s a difficult situation but in effect the administrator was Bolton, at the time.  This incident happened this season so it doesn’t matter who the owners were/are.

From our point of view the reason that Bolton didn’t play is irrelevant, it is how it was handled and communicated that is the issue.

It is irrelevant too that it was Bolton, we should get the points for a forfeit game regardless of the opposition.  I would also argue the same outcome should this have happened to one of our rivals - they should get the points.

I personally have little interest in any further punishment awarded to Bolton.  I have no problem with Bolton but the authorities need to get this sorted as it’s been long enough now..

[Dutch Uncle]

Filo my friend - that is a little bit harsh and unlike you if I may say so, although the pain of 1998 still burns in us today so I can understand your reaction.

Frankie -welcome to this board where we welcome all true fans. If you are under 40 you may well have no idea of what happenned to us in 1998. Filo -  having been through that we should well understand the good points he is making, and he is wishing us well.

Frankie - in 1998 our old dilapidated ground Belle Vue was on prime real estate ripe for development profits. Our then owner sabotaged the club with the aim of making us fold, which he probably saw as a consequence if we lost our league status. Any player any good was shown the door, and he played his overweight next door neighbour in goal against our only credible rivals for bottom place. He got impatient and tried to burn the ground down, which was his undoing because his henchman dropped his mobile phone at the scene. There was significant damage to our main stand, but we played on, in front of crowds less than 1000, often losing by 5,6,7 or even 8 goals. We had a Football League record of 34 defeats that season. At the end of the season we were sure the club was gone and a mock funeral was held. Joyously, and to our surprise we had a saviour who rescued us, but it was a long hard slog - we were nearly relegated from the Conference in our first season, and it took us 5 years to get back to the Football League. We know first hand the hurt of a club being sabotaged, and have huge sympathy with Bury fans and yourselves. Our only beef is the way the cancellation, whoever at your club was responsible for it, was handled without informing the EFL or oursleves. And we were the only occasion this happenned when there were, to our eyes, other weeks with a similar situation when Bolton did not cancel matches.

Whatever the outcome this season, all true Doncaster fans are happy that it looks like there well be a Bolton team next season, and we hope something can be done for Bury as well. However IMHO relegation to League 2 if it happens should not be a disaster this season - you would be likely to have a good season next season and regain momentum.

We are still smarting from 1998 and what nearly happened, and we felt alone and abandoned. I hope your road to full recovery is shorter than ours.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Irrespective of the club or the predicament, the authorities need to make it absolutely clear that no club can make a decision not to fulfill a fixture and claim it as postponed.

As said above, whether in administration or not, both the Administrator and Phil Parkinson were well aware of the rules and the protocol, having already spoken to the EFL prior to the Tranmere game. They took the decision in full knowledge of the rule break and sanctions would be forthcoming. In addition, the chosen method of communication was totally disrespectful to a fellow professional club and it's supporters and, to the EFL themselves.

We wish a fellow football club all the best in recovering from dark times, just as we did but, this cannot be at the expense of a well run football club who abides by the rules.

[drfchound]

Bolton fan here and can I say that having read all the previous posts I can well understand and accept the points made. I would though like to correct a few points. At the time the match should have been played our club was actually without an owner under administration and it was the administrator not the club who cancelled the game. They did so under advice from then manager Phil Parkinson regarding the EFL rules on young players. Parkinson left the club shortly afterwards. Maybe he was more interested in his own managerial record than our club or players?

Either way nobody at Wanderers was happy with the cancellation as we were improving with each game. The EFL have much to answer for in allowing a crook like Ken Anderson from owning and raping our club as he had with Southampton some years earlier and receiving an 8 year ban. There’s a much wider issue here with the EFL than this match and whichever way the EFL jumps I think legal action will result. As for Donny, I think you should have the 3 points as it was not at all your fault but of course that could spark complaint from Coventry who could only draw with us.

For what it’s worth, I believe we will recover the deficit we’ve faced and avoid relegation, even without these 3 points but finally as a fan I’d just like to say that none of us have control over who owns us. Both Bury and ourselves suffered crooks and I only hope that never happens to you but always remember that it very well could. Good luck this season anyway and I look forward to visiting the Keemoat later in the season when I expect us to get the 3 points back. ;-))

You were improving with every game?
In reality you were losing 5-0 every week.
I suppose you would also argue that the matches you played under the Adminstrators should be wiped from the record and be replayed.
If you think that is ridiculous, then that is how we feel about your suggestion that it wasn’t the fault of BWFC that you failed to fulfill the fixture against us.

[Frankie Rennie]

Dutch Uncle, many thanks for your reasoned and polite reply. I am old enough to remember Belle Vue and visited there just once as we were rarely in the same division. I also remember the disgraceful actions of your owner and whether you knew it or not had the sympathy from all decent football fans. Thankfully your proud club has come through it and with a cracking new stadium, loyal following and good owner there’s no limit to what you can achieve.

Naturally I fully understand your dissatisfaction with the unacceptable way the game was cancelled, we weren’t happy either. Sadly at that time our club was going through hell, a despicable, corrupt owner, striking players and a manager who knew he was going to leave one way or the other. It wasn’t however the fans or even BWFCs fault because at that time it was entirely up to the Administrator who made all decisions. Equally one of your other contributors quoted our Chairman at the time, Phil Gartside ( nickname Gartslime) which should tell you what we thought of him, who pushed for PL2. Again this was one man not the club or fans. Unfortunately these idiots get control of clubs and we as fans can’t do anything about it. As for punishment, nobody now at the club was responsible for what happened up to the cancellation and whilst that’s not your concern, I would ask you as fellow fans to remember your own issues and that these things happened and could very well happen again.

As for the EFL and the delay in pronouncing on things, it’s affecting us too and we want it resolved but you have to take into account that we at BWFC believe the EFL are largely responsible for our predicament. Shawn Harvey who was in charge at that time and originally sanctioned Ken Anderson as our sole owner, had been challenged for two years over what was going on yet ignored protests even from local MPs. For over a year, suppliers, HMRC, Bolton Council, Poluce and suppliers remained unpaid whilst he funnelled money out of the club to his overseas accounts. None of this is of course an excuse to you but it might be why the EFL are considering their position because too heavy a further penalty on us and I’m sure legal action would follow. Anyway good luck in the cup today and however it’s resolved let’s hope it doesn’t stop us both enjoying the rest of the season.
Filo my friend - that is a little bit harsh and unlike you if I may say so, although the pain of 1998 still burns in us today so I can understand your reaction.

Frankie -welcome to this board where we welcome all true fans. If you are under 40 you may well have no idea of what happenned to us in 1998. Filo -  having been through that we should well understand the good points he is making, and he is wishing us well.

Frankie - in 1998 our old dilapidated ground Belle Vue was on prime real estate ripe for development profits. Our then owner sabotaged the club with the aim of making us fold, which he probably saw as a consequence if we lost our league status. Any player any good was shown the door, and he played his overweight next door neighbour in goal against our only credible rivals for bottom place. He got impatient and tried to burn the ground down, which was his undoing because his henchman dropped his mobile phone at the scene. There was significant damage to our main stand, but we played on, in front of crowds less than 1000, often losing by 5,6,7 or even 8 goals. We had a Football League record of 34 defeats that season. At the end of the season we were sure the club was gone and a mock funeral was held. Joyously, and to our surprise we had a saviour who rescued us, but it was a long hard slog - we were nearly relegated from the Conference in our first season, and it took us 5 years to get back to the Football League. We know first hand the hurt of a club being sabotaged, and have huge sympathy with Bury fans and yourselves. Our only beef is the way the cancellation, whoever at your club was responsible for it, was handled without informing the EFL or oursleves. And we were the only occasion this happenned when there were, to our eyes, other weeks with a similar situation when Bolton did not cancel matches.

Whatever the outcome this season, all true Doncaster fans are happy that it looks like there well be a Bolton team next season, and we hope something can be done for Bury as well. However IMHO relegation to League 2 if it happens should not be a disaster this season - you would be likely to have a good season next season and regain momentum.

We are still smarting from 1998 and what nearly happened, and we felt alone and abandoned. I hope your road to full recovery is shorter than ours.

[bobjimwilly]

Whoever was in charge at the club made the decision; whoever you want to blame for the state of the club at that time is irrelevant. And any subsequent legal battle would be in vain; YOUR CLUB called of the match without the agreement of the opposition or the football league, it's as simple as that.

When our club was going through hell in 1998; when we had to borrow nets, play teams full of kids and ask next door neighbours of players to play for us, we STILL managed to meet all fixtures.

Bolton simply don't have a leg to stand on here, and as others have mentioned, setting a precedent that similar future actions by others clubs will only incur a points deduction and/or fine is very dangerous and will damage the integrity of the Football League.

[graingrover]

Why not have the two Chairman and Chief Executives have a meeting to put their case to one another before the EFL and an independent arbitator..involve the people concerned .

[IDM]

In many respects any punishment awarded to Bolton is irrelevant to us.  The crux of the issue is that regardless of why this action was taken, the game was forfeit.

Therefore the reasonable outcome is for 3 points to Doncaster and a suitable default scoreline (2 or 3 nil) awarded.

As I said before, this would be my opinion regardless of which team forfeits a fixture unilaterally nor their opposition.

It’s simple, refuse to play without permission, you lose the game.  Maybe a fine for the club forfeiting and a suspended points deduction.

As far as the other 21 clubs are concerned, the only issue is that Bolton should not benefit by having a chance to win those points, and the fine and suspended points deduction can act as a deterrent to others, but without giving Bolton a double whammy punishment.

[bobjimwilly]

With respect the scoreline would have to be a 1-0 to Doncaster to set a proper precedent; whether or not Bolton were losing by big scorelines before or after the forfeited match is irrelevant. The punishment should be concerned with the fact a match was forfeited.

[drfchound]

IDM, your post got me thinking about the possible consequences of the Bolton match being played instead of being forfeited by them.
The Bolton poster has said that he thinks that BWFC will recover from the points deficit and avoid relegation.
We have already heard that some, or all, of the other L1 clubs are against us being awarded the win and three points.
I wonder what one of those clubs would think if Bolton beat us (if the game is played) and those three points, or even one point if we drew, kept Bolton up at the expense of their clubs.

[IDM]

Precisely..

Only two clubs can gain points from any one fixture. This fixture was forfeit therefore the points should be ours..

[sheffield exile1]

Dutch Uncle, many thanks for your reasoned and polite reply. I am old enough to remember Belle Vue and visited there just once as we were rarely in the same division. I also remember the disgraceful actions of your owner and whether you knew it or not had the sympathy from all decent football fans. Thankfully your proud club has come through it and with a cracking new stadium, loyal following and good owner there’s no limit to what you can achieve.

Naturally I fully understand your dissatisfaction with the unacceptable way the game was cancelled, we weren’t happy either. Sadly at that time our club was going through hell, a despicable, corrupt owner, striking players and a manager who knew he was going to leave one way or the other. It wasn’t however the fans or even BWFCs fault because at that time it was entirely up to the Administrator who made all decisions. Equally one of your other contributors quoted our Chairman at the time, Phil Gartside ( nickname Gartslime) which should tell you what we thought of him, who pushed for PL2. Again this was one man not the club or fans. Unfortunately these idiots get control of clubs and we as fans can’t do anything about it. As for punishment, nobody now at the club was responsible for what happened up to the cancellation and whilst that’s not your concern, I would ask you as fellow fans to remember your own issues and that these things happened and could very well happen again.

As for the EFL and the delay in pronouncing on things, it’s affecting us too and we want it resolved but you have to take into account that we at BWFC believe the EFL are largely responsible for our predicament. Shawn Harvey who was in charge at that time and originally sanctioned Ken Anderson as our sole owner, had been challenged for two years over what was going on yet ignored protests even from local MPs. For over a year, suppliers, HMRC, Bolton Council, Poluce and suppliers remained unpaid whilst he funnelled money out of the club to his overseas accounts. None of this is of course an excuse to you but it might be why the EFL are considering their position because too heavy a further penalty on us and I’m sure legal action would follow. Anyway good luck in the cup today and however it’s resolved let’s hope it doesn’t stop us both enjoying the rest of the season.
Filo my friend - that is a little bit harsh and unlike you if I may say so, although the pain of 1998 still burns in us today so I can understand your reaction.

Frankie -welcome to this board where we welcome all true fans. If you are under 40 you may well have no idea of what happenned to us in 1998. Filo -  having been through that we should well understand the good points he is making, and he is wishing us well.

Frankie - in 1998 our old dilapidated ground Belle Vue was on prime real estate ripe for development profits. Our then owner sabotaged the club with the aim of making us fold, which he probably saw as a consequence if we lost our league status. Any player any good was shown the door, and he played his overweight next door neighbour in goal against our only credible rivals for bottom place. He got impatient and tried to burn the ground down, which was his undoing because his henchman dropped his mobile phone at the scene. There was significant damage to our main stand, but we played on, in front of crowds less than 1000, often losing by 5,6,7 or even 8 goals. We had a Football League record of 34 defeats that season. At the end of the season we were sure the club was gone and a mock funeral was held. Joyously, and to our surprise we had a saviour who rescued us, but it was a long hard slog - we were nearly relegated from the Conference in our first season, and it took us 5 years to get back to the Football League. We know first hand the hurt of a club being sabotaged, and have huge sympathy with Bury fans and yourselves. Our only beef is the way the cancellation, whoever at your club was responsible for it, was handled without informing the EFL or oursleves. And we were the only occasion this happenned when there were, to our eyes, other weeks with a similar situation when Bolton did not cancel matches.

Whatever the outcome this season, all true Doncaster fans are happy that it looks like there well be a Bolton team next season, and we hope something can be done for Bury as well. However IMHO relegation to League 2 if it happens should not be a disaster this season - you would be likely to have a good season next season and regain momentum.

We are still smarting from 1998 and what nearly happened, and we felt alone and abandoned. I hope your road to full recovery is shorter than ours.

I think emotion will always play a part in any discussion. Myself and Chas Walker (no shrinking violet in his more able days) were thrown out of a football federation  of supporters meeting at Oldham for daring to bring up the situation at DRFC as it interfered with their discussion regarding the Christmas raffle. I remember being at Hull and at half time we were 0-0, second half were we on drugs 0-3. Awful season. However I do feel the postponement was wrong. Fundamentally because it was a profit motivated decision by corporate finance not as they portrayed it a benign welfare issue and that is what infuriates me and why morally we should  have the points. Bolton's owners whoever made that call.

[Prez]

Bolton "fan" on twitter celebrating the floods and saying its Karma for us crying over the cancelled fixture.

What a piece of scum, a scourge to society.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bolton "fan" on twitter celebrating the floods and saying its Karma for us crying over the cancelled fixture.

What a piece of scum, a scourge to society.

If we're forced to play this match against all precedent, true karma would be it being the match that relegates them when they get thumped by us.

[Frankie Rennie]

Prez, we all have idiots in our club support. This cretin has probably never experienced a flood and to be fair I hope he doesn’t but commenting like that is just stupid. Look this is a Donny sure and I’ve made my point. I agree you should have the points for the way it was done but I’m not sure it will be that easy. I’m hoping we will survive, mammoth task that it is but now we have a proper team I think we have a good chance. Anyway I’ll leave you to it now but whatever happens over this I still expect us to get the 3 points back when we come to the Keepmoat.

[scawsby steve]

Frankie Rennie sounds like a good, decent bloke to me, and most of what he says is true; particularly the bit about us deserving the points, but that it won't be easy.

As I've said before, the EFL will probably wait while the end of the season to see if the 3 points will impact on anyone's promotion or relegation prospects.

It's time a decision was made now, because this is going to the courts, whichever way the ruling goes.

Is Gina Miller a football fan?