Bolton update

[Frankie Rennie]

I don’t think the EFL can continue to delay much longer Steve, even though I’m sure they’d like to. Looking at it sensibly, if we had played you at the time we would in all probability have lost the game, so it seems only fair to give you the points. Obviously that wouldn’t suit Wanderers and my view certainly won’t be shared by many others but why should you be penalised for our situation? I think the EFLs problem is that maybe the likes of Coventry who could only draw with us may complain and others playing us now would also have a grumble.

If you add in our complaints against the EFL from last season, you’ll appreciate the problem is much wider than just our game issue. I’m glad I’m not trying to resolve it but either way someone needs to do it sooner rather than later.

By the way totally off topic, I have the same birthdate as arguably your most respected past player Alick Jeffrey so maybe that’s why I’m so understanding of your position? 😉

[silent majority]

Dutch Uncle, many thanks for your reasoned and polite reply. I am old enough to remember Belle Vue and visited there just once as we were rarely in the same division. I also remember the disgraceful actions of your owner and whether you knew it or not had the sympathy from all decent football fans. Thankfully your proud club has come through it and with a cracking new stadium, loyal following and good owner there’s no limit to what you can achieve.

Naturally I fully understand your dissatisfaction with the unacceptable way the game was cancelled, we weren’t happy either. Sadly at that time our club was going through hell, a despicable, corrupt owner, striking players and a manager who knew he was going to leave one way or the other. It wasn’t however the fans or even BWFCs fault because at that time it was entirely up to the Administrator who made all decisions. Equally one of your other contributors quoted our Chairman at the time, Phil Gartside ( nickname Gartslime) which should tell you what we thought of him, who pushed for PL2. Again this was one man not the club or fans. Unfortunately these idiots get control of clubs and we as fans can’t do anything about it. As for punishment, nobody now at the club was responsible for what happened up to the cancellation and whilst that’s not your concern, I would ask you as fellow fans to remember your own issues and that these things happened and could very well happen again.

As for the EFL and the delay in pronouncing on things, it’s affecting us too and we want it resolved but you have to take into account that we at BWFC believe the EFL are largely responsible for our predicament. Shawn Harvey who was in charge at that time and originally sanctioned Ken Anderson as our sole owner, had been challenged for two years over what was going on yet ignored protests even from local MPs. For over a year, suppliers, HMRC, Bolton Council, Poluce and suppliers remained unpaid whilst he funnelled money out of the club to his overseas accounts. None of this is of course an excuse to you but it might be why the EFL are considering their position because too heavy a further penalty on us and I’m sure legal action would follow. Anyway good luck in the cup today and however it’s resolved let’s hope it doesn’t stop us both enjoying the rest of the season.
Filo my friend - that is a little bit harsh and unlike you if I may say so, although the pain of 1998 still burns in us today so I can understand your reaction.

Frankie -welcome to this board where we welcome all true fans. If you are under 40 you may well have no idea of what happenned to us in 1998. Filo -  having been through that we should well understand the good points he is making, and he is wishing us well.

Frankie - in 1998 our old dilapidated ground Belle Vue was on prime real estate ripe for development profits. Our then owner sabotaged the club with the aim of making us fold, which he probably saw as a consequence if we lost our league status. Any player any good was shown the door, and he played his overweight next door neighbour in goal against our only credible rivals for bottom place. He got impatient and tried to burn the ground down, which was his undoing because his henchman dropped his mobile phone at the scene. There was significant damage to our main stand, but we played on, in front of crowds less than 1000, often losing by 5,6,7 or even 8 goals. We had a Football League record of 34 defeats that season. At the end of the season we were sure the club was gone and a mock funeral was held. Joyously, and to our surprise we had a saviour who rescued us, but it was a long hard slog - we were nearly relegated from the Conference in our first season, and it took us 5 years to get back to the Football League. We know first hand the hurt of a club being sabotaged, and have huge sympathy with Bury fans and yourselves. Our only beef is the way the cancellation, whoever at your club was responsible for it, was handled without informing the EFL or oursleves. And we were the only occasion this happenned when there were, to our eyes, other weeks with a similar situation when Bolton did not cancel matches.

Whatever the outcome this season, all true Doncaster fans are happy that it looks like there well be a Bolton team next season, and we hope something can be done for Bury as well. However IMHO relegation to League 2 if it happens should not be a disaster this season - you would be likely to have a good season next season and regain momentum.

We are still smarting from 1998 and what nearly happened, and we felt alone and abandoned. I hope your road to full recovery is shorter than ours.

I think emotion will always play a part in any discussion. Myself and Chas Walker (no shrinking violet in his more able days) were thrown out of a football federation  of supporters meeting at Oldham for daring to bring up the situation at DRFC as it interfered with their discussion regarding the Christmas raffle. I remember being at Hull and at half time we were 0-0, second half were we on drugs 0-3. Awful season. However I do feel the postponement was wrong. Fundamentally because it was a profit motivated decision by corporate finance not as they portrayed it a benign welfare issue and that is what infuriates me and why morally we should  have the points. Bolton's owners whoever made that call.

I'd like to challenge your memory on this one. You've mentioned that occasion once before on this board, and for that reason I made enquiries as to how accurate that recollection is. Firstly the FSF wasn't in place at that point in time, nor have they ever held a meeting in Oldham.

At that point it would have been the Nat Fed who would have pursued the DRFC position and the northern branch did hold meetings in Oldham. The Nat Fed Chair at that time was a chap called Alan Bloore, who is quite adamant that never happened, and that he and Chas used to drive to meetings together where they fully supported the position of all DRFC fans.

Alan, who happens to live in Doncaster, and myself chatted to Chas on more than one occasion where we recalled the previous issues at DRFC . I think your memory of 'being thrown out' is somewhat clouded by something.

[nortikorner]

make bolton play the game at a neutral ground and proceeds go to charity

[IDM]

No, just award DRFC the 3 points..

[Metalmicky]

Seems like a decision will be made by Friday..........independent disciplinary commission meeting today.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/18034793.bolton-wanderers-wait-imminent-efl-punishment-decision/

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Yes, will be interesting to know whether DRFC will be made aware of the decision before being made public.

Another thing that's been obvious from this issue is the absence of any specific time frames in the disciplinary procedures. The only relevant reference is appeals must be lodged within 14 days! In any disciplinary, all parties need to ensure they are prepared and have all the relevant evidence so surely a timescale of within 28 days from the offence shouldn't be unreasonable should it!?

[IDM]

Interesting point in the article, they say Bolton cutes “Premier League Handbook rules.. on Acadeny games...”

What has that got to do with the EFL as a competition and EFL fixtures.?

[DRNaith]

Do you seriously think that if someone on this forum uses the word postponed it makes any difference

It factually incorrect. Mind you don't hurt your head

[Metalmicky]

Comments from some Bolton fans on that article.....

Cancelling games at the last minute because of a waterlogged or frozen pitch is acceptable as they need to protect the players but cancelling a game by adhering to the rules regarding young players isn't. Grounds in this day and age should be able to deal with these problems as part of the membership to be a league club . Maybe the EFL should start awarding the points to the away team for a last minute cancellation as the home team failed to to play the fixture when they should have. We have plenty of time to reschedule the Doncaster game but they will probably complain that that wouldn't have been the team they thought they would play.As for the Brentford game they got the points so why deduct them off us in a different league and season.

......and

Surely common sense will dictate here, we tecnically lost lost seasons game so that has been and gone and the Doncaster came can and should be rescheduled, i wish we had not started the season till we got our new squad, If Bury would have been allowed to reschedule 5-6 games surely we should be allowed one without further punishment.

......and

Any penalty should and will be suspended I'm sure. If we survive from -12 that's a miracle and deserved. We have abided by the academy rules Regards academy players and surely the EFL won't be so callous as to punish us because if they do they are effectively saying we should have played the game and put them at risk. They made the decision to allow us to start the season knowing we had an academy squad so how can they also not accept some responsibility for what the outcome was? The game should be rearranged and we should get a suspended penalty if anything and let's leave it at that! The pressure from the other EFL clubs is only for their selfish gain but if they really care about a football clubs survival they would accept the current penalties imposed are enough.

..... but also

we had the players to play against doncaster we had a team, its no different premier league teams playing the under23s in the leasing cup. it was that useless manager we had parkinson, yes he be sacked before christmas the useless clown

.......and

I think it will be 6 points! 3 for each game and possibly a financial penalty as well. Certainly in my opinion the 3 points should be awarded to Doncaster as they were to Brentford because in no way were either club responsible for our actions. It's just sad that none of the perpetrators are still here and new management and the fans have to carry the can.

.......and finally

I've heard that the other league chairman have agreed to a -9 to -15 points deduction, whether that happens I don't know but I hope not.

[since-1969]

Avoiding a further 12 points deduction by simply playing a game and loosing , would surly have been sensible knowing that a further deduction could most definitely result in relegation to L2. The cost DRFC money , broke EFL rules and acted in self interest without consolidation so 12 points would be a correct result and awarding of the points Win to DRFC.

[deebee]

That article still says the match was postponed. IT WASN'T IT WAS CANCELLED. Their argument does not hold water as they played the youth team players both Saturday and Tuesday the following week.

[IDM]

Comments from some Bolton fans on that article.....

Cancelling games at the last minute because of a waterlogged or frozen pitch is acceptable as they need to protect the players but cancelling a game by adhering to the rules regarding young players isn't. Grounds in this day and age should be able to deal with these problems as part of the membership to be a league club . Maybe the EFL should start awarding the points to the away team for a last minute cancellation as the home team failed to to play the fixture when they should have. We have plenty of time to reschedule the Doncaster game but they will probably complain that that wouldn't have been the team they thought they would play.As for the Brentford game they got the points so why deduct them off us in a different league and season.

......and

Surely common sense will dictate here, we tecnically lost lost seasons game so that has been and gone and the Doncaster came can and should be rescheduled, i wish we had not started the season till we got our new squad, If Bury would have been allowed to reschedule 5-6 games surely we should be allowed one without further punishment.

......and

Any penalty should and will be suspended I'm sure. If we survive from -12 that's a miracle and deserved. We have abided by the academy rules Regards academy players and surely the EFL won't be so callous as to punish us because if they do they are effectively saying we should have played the game and put them at risk. They made the decision to allow us to start the season knowing we had an academy squad so how can they also not accept some responsibility for what the outcome was? The game should be rearranged and we should get a suspended penalty if anything and let's leave it at that! The pressure from the other EFL clubs is only for their selfish gain but if they really care about a football clubs survival they would accept the current penalties imposed are enough.

..... but also

we had the players to play against doncaster we had a team, its no different premier league teams playing the under23s in the leasing cup. it was that useless manager we had parkinson, yes he be sacked before christmas the useless clown

.......and

I think it will be 6 points! 3 for each game and possibly a financial penalty as well. Certainly in my opinion the 3 points should be awarded to Doncaster as they were to Brentford because in no way were either club responsible for our actions. It's just sad that none of the perpetrators are still here and new management and the fans have to carry the can.

.......and finally

I've heard that the other league chairman have agreed to a -9 to -15 points deduction, whether that happens I don't know but I hope not.

They don’t seem to get that the issue isn’t why the game didn’t happen, but how it was handled by Bolton.

[Metalmicky]

The latest comment is laughable..........

You can look at it this way. The Brentford match was postponed and cancelled in the season 2018/2019. A decision was made to award the match to Brentford 3 points to them and 0 points to us, that season we went into Administration a result of the club unable to pay its debts and therefore unable to continue as a going concern, part of that debt was owed to players, the reason the Brentford game was not played, also the decision sanctioned by the PFA.
The Brentford cancellation was all part of the reason we went into Administration and for that, we have had a 12 point deduction, we have been punished all ready for the season 2018/2019, therefore, there should be no further punishment due.
At the time we were due to play Doncaster the club was still in Administration and the people in charge and responsible for the club were the Administrators, the EFL was allowing us to play our games because they were expecting us to be taken over at any moment, they knew the situation with our playing staff, they had seen the results from those matches played they also knew it was causing unfair competition, more so this unfair competition was against the rules advised for those on Scholarship contracts (more or less the whole team at that time).
The EFL was supposed to be keeping a close eye on us during this period, they should have been looking at the welfare of our brave kids and intervening themselves not leaving it to Administrators with no experience of running football clubs, we as a club tried very hard to fulfil our fixtures and we did in the main but enough was enough we had to do something and we did albeit a late notification.
Ohh I do feel sorry for poor old Donny and others that were not matched against us so early in the season and that instead of looking forward, rubbing your hands, to playing our kids, now instead you lot are frightened to death of facing us.
To the EFL we have no case to answer and if we do get a further points deduction, fight them, fight them on the beaches, everywhere just fight them.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

In terms of the outcome of the hearing, I think and hope the following will happen.

1. Primary judgement. Bolton found guilty of misconduct for a breach of rules by failing to fulfil a fixture and failing to inform relevant parties.

The judgement must reflect that no club can take the law into their own hands.

The sanction is a forfeit of the game to DRFC and an order to pay financial compensation to DRFC.

2. Further sanctions. Given the EFL's part in allowing Bolton to start the season, then allowing them to continue, beyond the point their takeover didn't happen, I think the commission may decide they have some mitigating circumstances.

Bolton may also rely on the Welfare issue however the commission must determine whether these Premier League Academy guidelines are relevant to Bolton. Part of this may be looking deeper into the ages of the players available etc, and the discussions that took place prior to our game.

Given the Brentford match last season, where Brentford were awarded a 1-0 win, and Bolton aslo received a 12 point penalty for going into administration, they may judge that no further sanctions should apply to this season.

Therefore, just on our game, we should get the 3 points and financial compensation however I suspect Bolton will receive a financial penalty, the level of which may depend on whether the commission accepts Bolton's mitigating circumstances.

[ravenrover]

Get ready, I can see the game being played no matter what our feelings are

[IDM]

I can imagine the club may appeal if that is the decision from today’s meeting..

[Chris Black come back]

They cheated. Absolutely bang to rights.

Chances of us getting full recompense of points and cash is probably close to zero.

[dknward2]

Personally I think it will be rescheduled we will appeal but still have to play it we may get a small financial payout to cover the extra hotel and coach payment.

Then the efl will then bring out a rule to cover cancelled games as a forefit to avoid this again in the future.

Bolton may get another points deduction i.e 3 points to cover off if they win but we will still get the rough end of the stick.

And if it's any better than that I'll be happy

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Looks like the EFL have been busy. Another disciplinary for the FA and our friends down the road.

Sheffield Wednesday: EFL charge Owls with misconduct following Hillsborough sale - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50418776

[Donnybob]

Quote: "Bolton may also rely on the Welfare issue however the commission must determine whether these Premier League Academy guidelines are relevant to Bolton."

Have to disagree strongly with this reasoning. It was never in Bolton's gift to cancel the game. If Bolton wished to cancel then there is a perfectly clear procedure to follow.  Bolton was required to seek permission from the EFL laying out a specific reason supported by appropriate evidence.

Similarly the earlier comment about games postponed due to inclement weather was irrelevant. When there's a pitch inspection the game is called off on the say of an independent referee, not by the club.

Must say the suggestion that teams are now afraid to play Bolton's new team made me chuckle. Since this game was cancelled in early September Bolton have won just twice and there are only 5 more games before Santa comes down the chimney. Not to mention they were knocked out of the FA Cup by a lower division team last week.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Quote: "Bolton may also rely on the Welfare issue however the commission must determine whether these Premier League Academy guidelines are relevant to Bolton."

Have to disagree strongly with this reasoning. It was never in Bolton's gift to cancel the game. If Bolton wished to cancel then there is a perfectly clear procedure to follow.  Bolton was required to seek permission from the EFL laying out a specific reason supported by appropriate evidence.

Similarly the earlier comment about games postponed due to inclement weather was irrelevant. When there's a pitch inspection the game is called off on the say of an independent referee, not by the club.

Must say the suggestion that teams are now afraid to play Bolton's new team made me chuckle. Since this game was cancelled in early September Bolton have won just twice and there are only 5 more games before Santa comes down the chimney. Not to mention they were knocked out of the FA Cup by a lower division team last week.

I didn't suggest it was Bolton's gift to cancel the game. They will be punished however, I was suggesting the severity of the punishment may depend on whether the commission consider Bolton's claim about the welfare issue to be relevant.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Quote: "Bolton may also rely on the Welfare issue however the commission must determine whether these Premier League Academy guidelines are relevant to Bolton."

Have to disagree strongly with this reasoning. It was never in Bolton's gift to cancel the game. If Bolton wished to cancel then there is a perfectly clear procedure to follow.  Bolton was required to seek permission from the EFL laying out a specific reason supported by appropriate evidence.

Similarly the earlier comment about games postponed due to inclement weather was irrelevant. When there's a pitch inspection the game is called off on the say of an independent referee, not by the club.

Must say the suggestion that teams are now afraid to play Bolton's new team made me chuckle. Since this game was cancelled in early September Bolton have won just twice and there are only 5 more games before Santa comes down the chimney. Not to mention they were knocked out of the FA Cup by a lower division team last week.

I didn't suggest it was Bolton's gift to cancel the game. They will be punished however, I was suggesting the severity of the punishment may depend on whether the commission consider Bolton's claim about the welfare issue to be relevant.

If it was relevant they'd have said something the instant the fixture list came out. I don't remember a peep out of them until they needed an excuse.

[Donnybob]

Its unfortunate that DRFC keeps getting dragged into the dirt on this issue. DRFC was ready willing and able to fulfill the fixture. Fans bought tickets, arranged travel and time off work. Compensation is due both on and off the field.

Bolton flagrantly broke EFL rules. They fully deserved to be punished for their actions.

If individuals working for Bolton are responsible for the actions taken then the Bolton should take appropriate in-house action against them.

If, as is claimed, 'The admin done It, not us!' Then Bolton must accept the punishment and sue the administrator for compensation.

If the EFL punishment results in relegation then the claim will be greater. Unless of course the action taken was instigated by an employee, say the manager, in which case Bolton have no leg to stand on.

If the admin cancelled the game then Bolton (the club management) should have registered their concern over such actions with the EFL and shown a willingness to play, thus negating punishment against themselves.

It should have been their defence all along, not some puffery about young professionals needing protection and citing rules from a different body (EPL) of which they are not part.

At no point has DRFC failed to fulfill it's obligations. Bolton has played the injured party when DRFC are in effect the victims.

As we are not actually involved in this case except as witnesses, I cannot see where we have any right of appeal whatever punishment the EFL impose.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I agree with you however, having spoke to Gavin recently, he says the club is prepared to take this further if they feel the outcome is unjust. Rovers have, quite rightly, kept their cards close to their chest on this issue other than stating that they believe we should get the 3 points. They have not made further comment unlike Bolton and other chairmen and managers who have weighed in with their opinions. However the DFP article confirms the EFL requested we re-arrange the game and we refused, steadfastly sticking to the statement Gavin made at the meet the owners event.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/18037839.bolton-boss-keith-hill-says-club-wont-victims-efl-verdict/

As said previously, Bolton are still playing the welfare card in their defence.

[since-1969]

Thankfully we are all about to learn what the punishment will be and why . We will then see officially how lower league clubs are treated and how they they treat injustice .I can see this being a land mark for Rovers this season who are the only club to have been effected .  Someone’s  going to be upset with the out come as there can not be a middle ground on this .

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Thankfully we are all about to learn what the punishment will be and why . We will then see officially how lower league clubs are treated and how they they treat injustice .I can see this being a land mark for Rovers this season who are the only club to have been effected .  Someone’s  going to be upset with the out come as there can not be a middle ground on this .

I hope you're right. Can't help think today will come and go without a statement or decision. Hope I'm wrong.

[IDM]

So where’s the statement then.?

I’m not one for jumping to conclusions, but that nothing has been announced so far makes me think that one of the parties is not satisfied with the outcome and has launched an appeal.

I know where my thoughts lie but I’m not on the panel.!

[Alan Southstand]

Surely, the statement has to be made public first and foremost, then that is quickly followed by an appeal (or two)?

[IDM]

Not sure why that would be the case Alan, it’s not the public who would make an appeal, only Bolton or Doncaster.?

[Muttley]

There are only 2 precedents for this...
(From https://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/Articles/DidYouKnow25.htm)

Back in March 1974 Halifax Town and Exeter City asked the Football League to postpone matches because their respective playing squads had been decimated by injury and illness. In Exeter's case they had medical certificates for 9 unfit players which left them with just 9 fit players, two of them goalkeepers. Halifax were given permission to postpone their Division 3 match at Bournemouth on Saturday March 30th 1974 but Exeter were refused permission to call of their matches against Peterborough the same day and Scunthorpe 3 days later. They played, and lost, their home match against Peterborough but refused to travel to Scunthorpe to fulfil their Division 4 fixture at the Old Showground scheduled for Tuesday April 2nd. There was speculation that Exeter's punishment might be expulsion from the Football League but later in April it was announced that the Devon side had been fined £5000 for not fulfilling the fixture and in addition were ordered to compensate Scunthorpe £1094 for the lost gate receipts and expenses. It was a massive sum for a Division 4 side to pay. Uniquely the two points were awarded to Scunthorpe and the match was not ordered to be played. At the time it was the only fixture in Football League history that was never played, a record that was the last for 45 years,,,,,,,

.....Bolton Wanderers were in a financial mess as the 2018/19 season came to a close. At the end of April 2019 with unpopular Chairman Ken Anderson wanting to sell the club who owed £1.2 million to the taxman Bolton players were threatening a strike as they - and other club staff - hadn't been paid since February. Staff issued a statement saying that the situation was 'creating mental, emotional and financial burdens for people through no fault of their own' and there were stories of a food bank being set up for staff at their home stadium while at their training ground the players couldn't have a hot shower as the club couldn't afford to provide hot water. The players carried out the strike threat and their scheduled home Championship match against Brentford was called off the day before it was due to have been played on Saturday April 27th. The match was rescheduled for Tuesday May 7th which was two days after the official end of the League season. However the Football League didn't accept that. With Bolton already relegated and the re-arranged match being in doubt because safety staff were planning their own boycott of the fixture the match was cancelled. Brentford were awarded the three points with a nominal 1-0 victory and so Bolton Wanderers v Brentford became only the second match not played at the end of a completed Football League season......

The other similar event was in the Premier League, so probably doesn’t set a precedent for the EFL...

Going back to the Scunthorpe v exeter postponement then fast forward to December 1996 and Middlesbrough tried the same stunt as Exeter had done in 1974 to postpone a match (see above), but suffered disastrous consequences. Middlesbrough called off their Premier League game at Blackburn without permission the day before the scheduled date of Saturday 21st December 1996. Manager Bryan Robson claimed that they were unable to field a competitive team as they had 23 players unavailable because of injury, illness or suspension. At the Premier League inquiry in January Blackburn argued that they should have been awarded the points but the match was ordered to be played and Middlesbrough suffered a 3 point deduction and a £50,000 fine. Middlesbrough drew at Blackburn when that match was played but for a club in the relegation area that three point deduction was to see them relegated. Had they had played the match in December - and had not suffered a thumping - they would have stayed up. It proved to be a sad season for Middlesbrough - relegated and beaten finalists in both the FA Cup and League Cup.

Despite these precedents, I expect Bolton to be punished with a points deduction and the game to be ordered to be played.