General Election 2019 - 12th December

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

If you're talking about economic growth per head, in real terms (i.e. after inflation is taken into account, which is what really matters), the past 9 years have seen a total growth considerably  less than the previous 9.

And.

The previous 9 included the Global Financial Crash.

You expect the years after a major recession to be ones of higher than average growth, as we make up lost ground. That is what has happened every time we've had a recession since Keynes taught us how to rebound.

By 2010,we had stabilised and growth was coming back strongly. And then Austerity killed it for years. A monumental economic mistake. Not the result of a market failure or a global collapse. Our own Govt's deliberate policy.

As a direct result, economic growth in the 2010s has been about 1.2% per year, when it averaged 2.3% per year for the 60 years before that.

There's no discussion about this in economic circles anymore. The Tory Austerity policy catastrophically and totally unnecessarily f**ked up the recovery from the GFC.

You want to see how badly? Google "UK GDP per capita" and have a look at the interactive graph that comes up.

I'm not pulling the wool over your eyes here. It really is THAT bad.

[albie]

Already happening, BST.

Do not assume that the EU elections give a strong pointer to a GE.

The task for Labour is to join the dots on the connections between a broad raft of policies, and where they lead going forward. So Leavers need to think about whether they are giving the nod to the NHS sell-off on the sly!

More movement from Farrago to come IMO.
The about face today doesn't really cut to the issue, so he needs to withdraw more candidates without getting strung up from a lamp-post by those he has misled.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And by the way. That's not just some meaningless academic debate.

Look what that catastrophic economic mistake has done to the wages that people earn



This MATTERS.

This is the really important stuff that will define our future.

Look at it another way. If we'd had a LABOUR Govt for the past decade, and we'd had economic growth and wage growth like that, do you think they would have any chance at all of winning this election?

Look at those graphs. And ask yourself if you truly want to carry on trusting this lot with your future prosperity.

[SydneyRover]

I understand the tide is turning for labor but please correct me if I'm wrong with my under 30 second challenge to explain the ramifications if voting tory or any Brexit party.

Ready-go: The tory party is controlled by the ERG hard right and many many moderates have left including johnson the lesser. Johnson and the party have buckled under the pressure from the ERG so No-Deal is almost guaranteed if the johnson tories get more than 50% of the seats or control of government via a coalition. The end .......... of the UK not as we know it but worse, if thats possible.

Not bad 15 seconds 

[SydneyRover]

Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?

Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?

bfyp, I presume you posted the question about the two nine year periods thinking that the conservatives would be shown to be better with the economy? otherwise why would you ask.

Following the data that bst has offered it shows that labor's contribution to the first nine were better than the Tories latter nine, and further without Austerity which labor would have tossed out there could have been a total of 18 years of better economic management under labor's stewardship.

Are you (or anyone else) going to refute, prove otherwise or say you're correct bst, labor are better when it comes to the economy? or just let it slide and then rinse and repeat some time later.

I think I'm correct in saying that bst & or Wilts has shown over the last few weeks and supported with stats labor would be better for the Economy, NHS and jobs or wages? or maybe both, No?

[wilts rover]

Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?

Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?

As stated above the Policy is to have a referendum in June 2020 with a credible leave option against remain.

The other points; what the actual question will be, will it be a 2 stage transferable vote, which side Labour will campaign for or will they have a free vote - those are all interesting but irrelevant for this election. Because if Labour don't win there won't be a referendum and none of that will matter.

[DonnyOsmond]

https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1193712509896798209?s=19

Here's a video of US discussing if Boris has been compromised after being pictured with a Russian agent. This isn't the first time, he was pictured before with a different person who he called 'a good friend' who was later convicted of being a spy.

[DonnyOsmond]

https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1193712509896798209?s=19

Here's a video of US discussing if Boris has been compromised after being pictured with a Russian agent. This isn't the first time, he was pictured before with a different person who he called 'a good friend' who was later convicted of being a spy.

We're so far in Russia's back pocket.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.

I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.

[SydneyRover]

Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.

I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.

With all due respect bfyp you always appear to have plenty of time to ask questions and then expand and change the question when challenged but not the time to supply any answers or rebuttals

[SydneyRover]

Meanwhile heavy drinking one eyed retired Australian MP goes for the beat-up.


‘’Alexander Downer says Australia should reduce UK intelligence sharing if Corbyn wins’’
Former top diplomat in the UK says Labour leader’s ‘Maduro-style economic agenda’ would imperil Australian investments

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/12/alexander-downer-says-australia-should-reduce-uk-intelligence-sharing-if-corbyn-wins

added

Lord Downer was heavily involved in this appalling behaviour, and because the government got caught out by a whistle blower they have taken him and his lawyer to court.

Australia–East Timor spying scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93East_Timor_spying_scandal

[wing commander]

BB.

Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.

Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.

So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.

And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.

It's that simple.

Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.

Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.

   Crystal clear????? Billy that's really pushing the boundary's it really is.Labour went through the majority of the post brexit referendum years with no real policy whatsoever,certainly the majority of the British public didn't know what it was..

    Now in the last few months they have finally come out with the above which to me is more of a statement than a policy.Voters up and down the country have still been asking the same old question.Would Labour campaign for Leave or Remain on any deal negotiated??.And still they refuse to answer it,trying in some way to kid voters along that they are on everybody's side.Thats not a full brexit Policy as far as I'm or most other people are concerned.It's a half arsed fudge and whilst I respect you defending the party you believe in you know that too...Corbyn is anti EU,always has been their are more than enough video's of him stating as much floating around social media.However one suspects the majority of the membership are remain..Thats not a crystal clear policy as far as I'm concerned more like muddy waters.

Wether you like it or not that Policy (along with Corbyn) is a major contributing factor to why Labour are doing so badly,in fact you would be hard pressed to figure out how they could have done much worse over the last few years.I've noticed in the last few pages people clutching at whispy straws in a slight poll movement change,stop kidding yourselfs,it would take a seismic earthquake for Labour to get a majority..That's reality...

 

   

[SydneyRover]

So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.

[wing commander]

So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.


The difference is the Tory's have a firm side Sydney.They are commited to leaving the EU.They had a deal negotiated with the EU and then they re negotiated another one both were rejected by Labour/snp/libs..Whether you agree with that deal or not their position is clear.Leave or remain voters know exactly were they stand with every party but Labour.

Conservatives-Leave
Libs-Remain
SNP-Remain
Labour-Take a wild guess...

Labour Leave voters don't know whether Labour will renegotiate a deal then campaign against it,and Labour remain voters don't know wether they will re-negotiate a deal and campaign for it..By trying to keep both sides on board they have actually only managed to alienate both sides.

[wilts rover]

Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.

I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.

With all due respect bfyp you always appear to have plenty of time to ask questions and then expand and change the question when challenged but not the time to supply any answers or rebuttals

That's not fair Sydney. I have the polar opposite political views to BFYP but he always posts thoughtfully and (mostly) interesting stuff. Maybe you have him mixed up with someone else?

[bpoolrover]

It’s not about the mps having a free vote for labour, the leave voters want to no that there won’t be a 2nd referendum as the remain want to no that they are, what labour are offering is nothing, vote for us and we will see what Happens on brexit

[wilts rover]

So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.


The difference is the Tory's have a firm side Sydney.They are commited to leaving the EU.They had a deal negotiated with the EU and then they re negotiated another one both were rejected by Labour/snp/libs..Whether you agree with that deal or not their position is clear.Leave or remain voters know exactly were they stand with every party but Labour.

Conservatives-Leave
Libs-Remain
SNP-Remain
Labour-Take a wild guess...

Labour Leave voters don't know whether Labour will renegotiate a deal then campaign against it,and Labour remain voters don't know wether they will re-negotiate a deal and campaign for it..By trying to keep both sides on board they have actually only managed to alienate both sides.

You seem a bit confused WC so I have fixed it for you

Tory/Brexit Party - hard Brexit with deregulated economy, reduced environmental & workers rights, lax tax evasion laws with risk of attracting money launderers and no idea of future relationship with EU for years
LD - remain without asking the country
SNP - remain (but unsure about asking the country)
Labour - letting the country decided with a second referendum in June 2020 with a viable leave option against remain

It is irrelevant what Labour Leave or Labour Remain voters want. Unless they vote for a referendum they will get what Farage, Johnson and Trump want - and all that comes with it. They can argue about the campaign for that referendum during the campaign for that referendum.

[SydneyRover]

WC agreed WC the Tories want to leave clear cut but it's the how that's the problem everyone knows johnson wants no-deal so why isn't this being shouted from the hilltops?

I think if you reexamine the tory 'deal' over the last 3 years or even over the last year it has been their own party that has refused to accept what was being offered in 95-100% of the time, agreed labor didn't want what was being offerered but they weren't asked and had no power almost right up until johnson spat the dummy and started throwing his own mps out.

Corbyn has told his cabinet what the deal is, they may not be 100% happy but it's set. They took their time but the goalposts kept moving and if those in power couldn't make up their minds you can hardy remostrate with the opposition, except to say and reiterate what bst has said they threw away a golden opportunity to be the remain team.

Labour, renogotiate peoples vote on it,

Tory's with a majority no-deal crash out.

[wing commander]

     Sydney I appreciate that you and Wilts obviously believe that the current Labour policy on Brexit is the correct way to go.However you can argue all day long on here with me but the reality is that the electorate will make that decision and right now every poll must tell you that your view is in the minority even among Labour voters.The want to know what is Labour's position on whether they want to leave or remain,it really is as simple as that.You telling them they don't need to know isn't going to cut the mustard I'm afraid.

 

[SydneyRover]

I don't agree WC what I'm saying it's set, they've made a decision, my choice would be to go with what the economists say that their is no good Brexit. If labor get in and the public vote to remain, admittedly it doesn't look likely today but there is more than a month (which is a hell of a long time in politics)

If remain is the outcome the GDP growth alone would stabilize the economy provided there isn't a recession but whatever happens growth has to be better over any leave scenario and we've been over this ground many times.

[wing commander]

So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.


The difference is the Tory's have a firm side Sydney.They are commited to leaving the EU.They had a deal negotiated with the EU and then they re negotiated another one both were rejected by Labour/snp/libs..Whether you agree with that deal or not their position is clear.Leave or remain voters know exactly were they stand with every party but Labour.

Conservatives-Leave
Libs-Remain
SNP-Remain
Labour-Take a wild guess...

Labour Leave voters don't know whether Labour will renegotiate a deal then campaign against it,and Labour remain voters don't know wether they will re-negotiate a deal and campaign for it..By trying to keep both sides on board they have actually only managed to alienate both sides.

You seem a bit confused WC so I have fixed it for you

Tory/Brexit Party - hard Brexit with deregulated economy, reduced environmental & workers rights, lax tax evasion laws with risk of attracting money launderers and no idea of future relationship with EU for years
LD - remain without asking the country
SNP - remain (but unsure about asking the country)
Labour - letting the country decided with a second referendum in June 2020 with a viable leave option against remain

It is irrelevant what Labour Leave or Labour Remain voters want. Unless they vote for a referendum they will get what Farage, Johnson and Trump want - and all that comes with it. They can argue about the campaign for that referendum during the campaign for that referendum.

   Wilts by all means state a different opinion to mine,i respect your right to have that opinion.However don't ever change my posts to suit your ends.That is very very disrespectful and bang out of order as far as I'm concerned.If you want this thread to be a Labour Love in between yourselves then I wont take any further part in it..

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.

I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.

With all due respect bfyp you always appear to have plenty of time to ask questions and then expand and change the question when challenged but not the time to supply any answers or rebuttals

I simply do not care enough to spend the time it requires.  My job and two young kids deserve that much more. If I cant just dip in and out when I'm doing something like feeding a 7 week old baby I wont bother.

[SydneyRover]

Absolutely no problem bfyp but you'll lose cred if you keep questioning posts but don't support your reasoning

[drfchound]

Interesting possible movement in the polls. Look on the very far right hand side of this graph which averages the last 15 polls.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Uk2022polling15average.png/800px-Uk2022polling15average.png

We know the Tories have been mopping up BP support since Johnson took over.

Labour had been flatlining since losing a huge chunk of support to the Greens and LDs in the first half of the year. But finally, Labour's support has started climbing, with the Greens and LDs falling.

Massive gap to make up, but if that move starts to develop momentum, more and more folk will see that, if you really don't want Johnson, there really is only one alternative.

I'd be delighted to eat humble pie on this.

The thing is though BST, if you really don’t want Corbyn there is only one alternative likely winner.

Polar opposites of opinion for many people whereas some aren’t sure if they want either of them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It’s not about the mps having a free vote for labour, the leave voters want to no that there won’t be a 2nd referendum as the remain want to no that they are, what labour are offering is nothing, vote for us and we will see what Happens on brexit

Bpool.

Forgive me for being blunt, but your post shows a worrying inability to process facts.

I'll repeat.

Labour's policy is crystal clear.

If Labour is elected, there WILL be a second Ref, between a Leave deal that Labour will negotiate with the EU, and Remain.

WingCo.

As I posted last night, were you up in arms about the Tory party not having a common policy on May's Deal? If not (and I don't recall you decrying it at the time) then why do you criticise Labour for not saying if they would campaign for Leave or Remain in Ref2.

This is an issue that goes entirely against party discipline. The current PM has flipped his thinking on precisely what form of Brexit we should have at least 4 times, and that after flipping from being a strong Remain supporter to a passionate Leaver.

If you aren't going to condemn him, why criticise Labour?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

Well yes. That's kind of how it works. You choose between two imperfect options.

[wing commander]

Oh Billy don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Boris.Which is why I'm in a difficult position of were I actually cast my vote this election.My Politics are centre based, so right now I do not have a party that I can truly relate too or represents what I believe in.I've always believed that if you cant be bothered to vote then you lose credibility to complain but I'm beginning to wonder.The conservatives in their current guise are far to far right,however on the other hand I'm no socialist and couldn't vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn,mainly based on his foreign policy and that I'm ex military..

   The main reason I criticise Labour so much on here is for a couple of reasons,firstly this forum is mainly Labour supporters and it wouldn't be much of a debate if we only heard one sides view,secondly it's my belief that the best goverments we have had are the ones were we have a strong opposition,it's my belief rightly or wrongly that the reason the Tory's have been able to get away with what they have is because the current opposition are so weak...Even you must shake your head and wonder how Labour have found themselves in this position against such a unpopular Government..

If the current Labour leadership was true centre/left with a different leader they would be on the verge of power..

[DonnyOsmond]

It’s not about the mps having a free vote for labour, the leave voters want to no that there won’t be a 2nd referendum as the remain want to no that they are, what labour are offering is nothing, vote for us and we will see what Happens on brexit

Leave voters want to be in limbo forever then?

[rtid88]

Oh Billy don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Boris.Which is why I'm in a difficult position of were I actually cast my vote this election.My Politics are centre based, so right now I do not have a party that I can truly relate too or represents what I believe in.I've always believed that if you cant be bothered to vote then you lose credibility to complain but I'm beginning to wonder.The conservatives in their current guise are far to far right,however on the other hand I'm no socialist and couldn't vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn,mainly based on his foreign policy and that I'm ex military..

   The main reason I criticise Labour so much on here is for a couple of reasons,firstly this forum is mainly Labour supporters and it wouldn't be much of a debate if we only heard one sides view,secondly it's my belief that the best goverments we have had are the ones were we have a strong opposition,it's my belief rightly or wrongly that the reason the Tory's have been able to get away with what they have is because the current opposition are so weak...Even you must shake your head and wonder how Labour have found themselves in this position against such a unpopular Government..

If the current Labour leadership was true centre/left with a different leader they would be on the verge of power..

Agree with everything you say there WC!

[wing commander]

Oh Billy don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Boris.Which is why I'm in a difficult position of were I actually cast my vote this election.My Politics are centre based, so right now I do not have a party that I can truly relate too or represents what I believe in.I've always believed that if you cant be bothered to vote then you lose credibility to complain but I'm beginning to wonder.The conservatives in their current guise are far to far right,however on the other hand I'm no socialist and couldn't vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn,mainly based on his foreign policy and that I'm ex military..

   The main reason I criticise Labour so much on here is for a couple of reasons,firstly this forum is mainly Labour supporters and it wouldn't be much of a debate if we only heard one sides view,secondly it's my belief that the best goverments we have had are the ones were we have a strong opposition,it's my belief rightly or wrongly that the reason the Tory's have been able to get away with what they have is because the current opposition are so weak...Even you must shake your head and wonder how Labour have found themselves in this position against such a unpopular Government..

If the current Labour leadership was true centre/left with a different leader they would be on the verge of power..

Agree with everything you say there WC!

I wouldn't admit to that rtid88,that wont make you popular on this thread..haha