General Election 2019 - 12th December

[Glyn_Wigley]

Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant

Woudn't leaving the EU but staying in the CU/SM respect both referenda?

[BillyStubbsTears]

It would also be an acceptable 1st or 2nd choice to 75% of the population according to a poll this year.

No other outcome comes close to that level of support.

But apparently it's undemocratic to question the deal that Johnson has agreed.

Strange times...

[Ldr]

Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant

Woudn't leaving the EU but staying in the CU/SM respect both referenda?

Works for me Glyn

[SydneyRover]

We have a bit of a consensus here, I think we should go for it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If Brexit was truly about The Will of The People, we'd have left some time ago on something like those terms.

But it's not. It never was. Brexit is and only ever was about the civil war for control of the Tory party.

So, because that sort of deal is utterly unacceptable to the Far Right, May unilaterally interpreted the 2016 result as meaning that we had to leave the SM and CU.

There's no democratic mandate for that decision. The 2016 ballot paper didn't say
"Remain".
Or
"Leave, but 'leave' must be interpreted as a more distant relationship with the EU than continued membership of the CU and SM".

And yet, May, Johnson and Farage decided for you that that was what the ballot meant.

And questioning them is an affront to democracy, apparently.

[bpoolrover]

Do you not think most people thought leave meant leave come what may? You must speak to leave voters not on this forum what have they said to you? Have they changed there mind? As I’ve said and others have going on people I know and social media hardly any seem to have said they would change there vote? Genuine question not a argument

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

Forgive me but that is a silly thing to say, "leave meant leave come what may".

If that was the case, you should be livid with Johnson and Rees-Mogg and Farage and IDS and John Redwood and Bill Cash and Mark Francois. If your comment is correct, May's deal meant "Leave" and that lot were utterly undemocratic in bringing it down and preventing us from Leaving, unless it was on terms that were acceptable to them, and imposed on the rest of us.

I and others have just said that there as a form of leave which could have attracted the support of a very large chunk of the population. That was rejected by the Tory party, without ANY reference to the electorate. THEY, May and the Tories, egged on by Farage, decided that that sort of Leave wasn't acceptable.

Once that decision had been made, any claim that "Leave means Leave" is ridiculous. "Leave" has ome to mean whatever is determined by the right wing of the Tory party.

[wing commander]

   I've never been a fan of a second referendum in any guise.However my mind is changing.Billy can harp on all he wants about it been the Tory's fault and Labour are blameless but the reality is that with no majority in Parliament no deal whatever it's form would get through and there all to blame..

   Only this week we've had over 100 Labour parliament candidates sign a pledge that they will campaign for remain and it's there aim to stop brexit.They don't seem to care or think what Labours position is going to be,they have pledged that for themselves..

   So whoever is in government would need a big majority because those mp's if elected are not going to vote for any deal are they??? So unless the Tory's get a big majority to pass it through then whilst I don't think it's democratic a second vote is the only way to go...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co.

Just a few facts here and one (well-supported) opinion.

Facts.
1) The 2016 Ref didn't specify AT ALL what "Leave" meant.
2) Theresa May decided, in her Lancaster House speech in Jan 2017 that "Leave" meant leaving the SM and CU.
3) That was a pivotal moment because it killed any possibility of the Opposition parties supporting the Leave that she would negotiate. Because that meant that we were being driven towards a Brexit that, in practice, would mean a watering down of employment and environmental protection and major economic frictions between the UK and EU.
4) Johnson and the ERG then took an increasingly hard stance on what "Leave" meant and refused to support the (already hard) deal that May had negotiated. If they had supported May last winter, we would have left by March.

Those are all facts.

My opinion.
If May had tried to go for the one Brexit deal that could have reached across party lines back in 2017 (a softer Brexit, including some form of staying in the CU and SM) she'd have easily carried this through Parliament. That's because Corbyn wanted that done and out of the way. There is nothing in it for him to keep Brexit hanging around unfinished, as you can see by the hammering that he and Labour got in the opinion polls last spring. Opinion poll data shows clearly that a soft Brexit could have carried the support of the vast majority of the country, instead of polarising us into two aggressive polarised camps like we are at the moment. But thhat would have meant May getting it in the neck from the Right of the Tory party. And that's the reason it didn't happen.

If you disagree with any of those facts, or with that opinion, feel free to explain why. I'm sick of hearing badly thought-out complaints that it's all Labour's fault, with no fact-based justification.

[bpoolrover]

I don’t think anyone thinks it’s all labours fault, it was the tories in the 1st place for having a referendum then the tories for appointing a remain  pm, then it was pretty much all the mps for not coming together and getting us out of Europe

[Hounslowrover]

The MPs had no chance to come together, as previously stated, May went for the red lines and excluded any other party of supporting her. We would have been out if she'd gone for a Norway style deal

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

I give up. I totally give up.

Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?

I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.

That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.

I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.

If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.

What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.

No f**king way am I swallowing that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Massive pre-Election boost for Labour...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50436252

A soon-to-be convicted criminal coming to London to tell us how great he thinks Johnson is. And how Farage should have a position in Govt.

[bpoolrover]

Bpool.

I give up. I totally give up.

Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?

I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.

That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.

I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.

If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.

What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.

No f**king way am I swallowing that.

let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bpool.

I give up. I totally give up.

Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?

I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.

That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.

I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.

If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.

What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.

No f**king way am I swallowing that.

let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you

And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?

[wilts rover]

   I've never been a fan of a second referendum in any guise.However my mind is changing.Billy can harp on all he wants about it been the Tory's fault and Labour are blameless but the reality is that with no majority in Parliament no deal whatever it's form would get through and there all to blame..

   Only this week we've had over 100 Labour parliament candidates sign a pledge that they will campaign for remain and it's there aim to stop brexit.They don't seem to care or think what Labours position is going to be,they have pledged that for themselves..

   So whoever is in government would need a big majority because those mp's if elected are not going to vote for any deal are they??? So unless the Tory's get a big majority to pass it through then whilst I don't think it's democratic a second vote is the only way to go...

Err no, sorry but you are wrong WC.

Like it or loath it Johnson's deal did get through the HoC. He only pulled it because the HoC wanted 6 days rather than 2 days to scrutinise it - if he had continued we would most likely have a withdrawal deal agreed by now.

All those Labour MP's are standing on a policy of having a 2nd referendum with a viable leave deal against remain. If they get elected there will be a 2nd referendum in which their vote will count as equally as yours, mine, bpool and everyone else on this forum. They can campaign for who they like in that referendum but whichever side wins it is that which will be implemented.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'll bet you a tenner that there's not a majority votes for Tory and BP combined.

Do you agree that if that happens, there's no democratic mandate for Johnson's Brexit?

[drfchound]

Bpool.

I give up. I totally give up.

Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?

I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.

That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.

I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.

If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.

What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.

No f**king way am I swallowing that.

let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you

And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?

A bit like a jury would.

[SydneyRover]

The difference being of course is that a jury actually evaluates the evidence

[bpoolrover]

I'll bet you a tenner that there's not a majority votes for Tory and BP combined.

Do you agree that if that happens, there's no democratic mandate for Johnson's Brexit?

no I would say if no majority there should be a referendum as nothing will be solved

[drfchound]

The difference being of course is that a jury actually evaluates the evidence

What, shock horror.
Are you saying that the people of the UK won’t evaluate what politicians are telling them before they go to vote.

[SydneyRover]

it appears to be beyond you to do it hound 

[drfchound]

it appears to be beyond you to do it hound 

Getting desperate now, saying stuff like that.

[scawsby steve]

it appears to be beyond you to do it hound 

Getting desperate now, saying stuff like that.

They've been desperate for a long time Hound. About three and a half years to be precise.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bpool.

I give up. I totally give up.

Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?

I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.

That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.

I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.

If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.

What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.

No f**king way am I swallowing that.

let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you

And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?

A bit like a jury would.

Only after they've been shut in a room and forced to listen to all the evidence. And then usually only when it's unamimous. And even after all that it's no guarantee it's the truth.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant

Woudn't leaving the EU but staying in the CU/SM respect both referenda?

Works for me Glyn

Works for me too. If we have to Leave, there's no sense in slitting our economic throats to do it.

[drfchound]

Bpool.

I give up. I totally give up.

Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?

I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.

That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.

I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.

If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.

What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.

No f**king way am I swallowing that.

let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you

And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?

A bit like a jury would.

Only after they've been shut in a room and forced to listen to all the evidence. And then usually only when it's unamimous. And even after all that it's no guarantee it's the truth.

Yeah, I know that Glyn.
Just like it is no guarantee that anything that politicians (of all sides) tell us is the truth.

[SydneyRover]

''Russian meddling report – dissident's widow goes to law

Marina Litvinenko to try to force British government to publish document

The widow of a Russian dissident murdered in London plans to challenge a government decision not to publish a report on alleged Russian meddling in Britain, a lawyer representing the widow said''

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/15/russian-meddling-report-dissidents-widow-goes-to-law

What could be more democratic than to have this report released to clear the air, let's find out how many of the ''Friends of Russia'' conservative ra ra group are paid up members of the communist party or not.

Let's find out before the election if the Russians interfered in the 'vote' and of course who knew about it, after all it's in all our interest's to know, isn't it? 


Join the legal fight to release the Russia Report-give generously guys you know it makes sense 

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/releasetherussiareport/

https://www.crowdjustice.com/

[bpoolrover]

Have they said they won’t release it or they waiting till the election has been?

[wilts rover]

Surely you would want a report showing how/if the Russian government interferes in British politics & elections before this vote has taken place so you can assure yourself it is not doing so in this GE?

The report might of course say there has been no Russian interference. In that case it is doubly surprising that Johnson hasn't released a report saying he has not done what there is evidence/suspicion of him doing.