The problem for Labour...

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Ian Austin works for the Tories as an envoy to Israel, hence his article in the Jewish Chronicle.

As a trade envoy and unpaid? Is this not labour's problem a great big failure to listen to criticism?

[bpoolrover]

Austin does not work for the tories, he works for the government as does another labour parliamentary candidate

[SydneyRover]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/vote-tory-urges-former-labour-mp-ian-austin-nk52kpmng?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1573111521

Ok this guy is no fan of JC, but still staggering that someone who was a labour mp is saying vote tory...  after a bad start for the Tories to the campaign this is gold for them.

Is that any different to an MP that has switched party's from any party? they would not want you to vote for their previous party, this is only a bit different because the Murdoch media are making the most of it as you would expect bfyp.

Sydney, you're very very astute on politics, far more than me and others, but the area you fall down on is your obsession with newspapers. That story today has been on ALL the TV news channels for most of the day.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the Murdoch media.

Steve, I/we don't get the total wall of Brexit news here and before I went to bed around lunch (DMT) Donny mean time I had only read it in the Times. I should have understood it would be blasted across everywhere by the time I got up, just now.

added

I'll take this one on the chin

[BillyStubbsTears]

And unfortunately, here's the root cause of Labour's problems.

Read the first section of this article.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/what-is-corbynism-meaning-jack-shenker

The author relates the passion of 1500 Labour activists, convinced that Corbyn is right. Convinced that, because THEY are so passionately behind Corbyn, the polls are wrong.

1500 people. 0.005% of the electorate...

And there's the problem in a nutshell. A tiny fraction of the electorate has taken control of the Labour party. And they know, just KNOW that they are right. And they cannot be challenged. Not practically, because their votes dominate the party. And not intellectually, because...well, they are right. And the rest of us on the Left are wrong.

[wilts rover]

And unfortunately, here's the root cause of Labour's problems.

Read the first section of this article.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/what-is-corbynism-meaning-jack-shenker

The author relates the passion of 1500 Labour activists, convinced that Corbyn is right. Convinced that, because THEY are so passionately behind Corbyn, the polls are wrong.

1500 people. 0.005% of the electorate...

And there's the problem in a nutshell. A tiny fraction of the electorate has taken control of the Labour party. And they know, just KNOW that they are right. And they cannot be challenged. Not practically, because their votes dominate the party. And not intellectually, because...well, they are right. And the rest of us on the Left are wrong.

Nope read the whole article.

The point the author makes is that 'Corbynism' is not about Corbyn but the young active, radical, membership and it is them and their policies, such as the Green New Deal, that are going to be the future of the Labour party long after Corbyn retires.

He also makes the point that most 'Blairite' 'social democrats' don't appear to recognise or accept this - a point admirably proven by your post.

[rtid88]

As I stated above, the problem Labour have is JC.... I don't totally agree with Labour's policies and don't fully believe they will all be affordable but the country cannot go on the way it is that is quite obvious... The country is more at odds with itself than I can ever remember and has totally lost trust in the political system... A positive change is needed, that simply won't happen under a Tory government, totally set upon selling the core of our services to Trump and making the poor poorer and the rich richer...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes Wilts. I read the entire article. It was much if the same. Equating the zeal of the zealots with a belief that they will win.

I'm a socialist by the way. Always have been, always will be. Just tempered by the understanding that socialists who are unelectable are pointless. You make my point for me by assuming that someone who doesn't subscribe to the Cult of Corbyn is not a socialist.

And I'll tell you now. If you're positioning people like me outside the tent, your Labour party will never win a majority. Because I'm to the Left of 80% of the electorate.

[River Don]

Yes Wilts. I read the entire article. It was much if the same. Equating the zeal of the zealots with a belief that they will win.

I'm a socialist by the way. Always have been, always will be. Just tempered by the understanding that socialists who are unelectable are pointless. You make my point for me by assuming that someone who doesn't subscribe to the Cult of Corbyn is not a socialist.

And I'll tell you now. If you're positioning people like me outside the tent, your Labour party will never win a majority. Because I'm to the Left of 80% of the electorate.

Ooof William,

I had not realised just how disillusioned Labour supporters are with this bloke.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Don't get me wrong RD. I want him to win. I'll be campaigning for him to win. But I don't believe he will. I think he's made a catastrophic mess of Brexit when he had an open goal last Xmas. And I just don't see a Corbyn-led Labour pulling that back.

But you cannot have that discussion inside the Labour party, because there's a cult of personality that sees every criticism as a mortal threat.

[River Don]

The current Labour position does not inspire leavers or remainers. That's a very big problem.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's the issue RD.

Corbyn has never inspired people outside a hardcore of committed supporters.

The fundamental mistake that his team made was to convince themselves that Labour did so well in 2017 BECAUSE of Corbyn. Whereas the truth is that, even in that relative success, he had historically awful approval ratings.

The tragedy is that Labour's domestic policies are,for the most part, both excellent and popular, just like they were in 2017.

But he's not. And as Wilts demonstrates, you can't point that out in the modern Labour party without being accused of being against the policies.

[River Don]

Yes. And they need to recognise May was awful just awful. A hopeless campaigner and to top it off she did the dirty on her big support base and suggested older people would have to contribute more. It's a wonder they managed to cling on.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The telling thing is RD that for almost the entire period 2016-19, May, who was undoubtedly in the worst 3 post-war PMs was ahead of Corbyn in the "Best Leader" polls.

That's the truth that cannot be discussed in the modern Labour party.

[River Don]

I think I will vote for the yorkshire Party again. I don't care that it's a wasted vote, I'm convinced the region is ignored and needs desperately to have more control of its affairs.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The labour party seems really good at convincing itself its winning at all times, almost like it talks to itself. There are plenty of voters who dont vote labour but could. There are some.very admirable policies.  But as bst says disagree with one or two others and you get slaughtered by them.  There seems to be a tendency that you have to be super lefty labour (technical term that) or you aren't welcome.  I'm not sure how that delivers a majority for them. To get that they need to be more towards the centre (like Blair was), yet it wont now happen and thus the only way they can win is to criticise other parties and that often tends to be the approach.

Just look at the last election. They lost.  Yet activists, members etc will act as if they won. Yes they stopped a tory majority, but not a tory government. It was a failure and this time round is Corbyn's last chance.

For me Corbyn and the attack on successful businesses are the problem.  Some of the policies like green policies, power to the north etc are very good.  Increasing taxes and state ownership really are not imo.  I've also just as I said found labour activists hard to engage with, those I've spoke to you just can't discuss things with.

Also on the young, that's been the case for  very long time, why do so many of this young become none labour voters as they age? Is it to do with wealth, lifestyle, intelligence, knowledge?

[SydneyRover]

It's certainly true bfyp but you could just about put the same argument to the erg/tories, 21 expelled like naughty bboys and girls only some readmitted when they promised to behave.

added, but I concede it appears to be more of a problem for labor voters than it does tory voters, who knows why? serious question?

[wilts rover]

Yes Wilts. I read the entire article. It was much if the same. Equating the zeal of the zealots with a belief that they will win.

I'm a socialist by the way. Always have been, always will be. Just tempered by the understanding that socialists who are unelectable are pointless. You make my point for me by assuming that someone who doesn't subscribe to the Cult of Corbyn is not a socialist.

And I'll tell you now. If you're positioning people like me outside the tent, your Labour party will never win a majority. Because I'm to the Left of 80% of the electorate.

Again you are either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what the article says.

It specifically says there is no cult of Corbyn - Corbyn is just the current face of a mass movement of young people wanting change - and working hard to try and achieve it.

I have no idea what the result of this election will be, my guess is a hung parliament, but there does seem to be an energy about Labour's campaign so it wont be for lack of trying.

Corbyn will go but this people will carry on. You and me are the past now but I think the future of a left-wing socialist political party in this country is in good hands.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I agree with a great deal of this article about the past and future of Labour.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/%E2%80%A8tom-watsons-exit-is-the-end-of-the-end-for-new-labour-election-december-12-corbyn

Corbyn WILL be gone soon, whatever the outcome of this election. If Labour has any sense, it will (as the article suggests) move in in a direction that keeps the domestic policies of Corbynism but dumps the infantile foreign policy and the destructive sectarian suspicions that his generation of the Far Left are steeped in.

Only one  thing worries me about that article.

It entirely ignores the consequences for the Left of losing this election, especially losing it badly. The consequence of a Johnson administration let off the leash. And the reaction of the idealistic younger generation if Corbyn's Labour badly let them down over this and Brexit. That could lead to another cycle of internal war in Labour. And none of it needed to happen.