British fail?

[SydneyRover]

Don't you just love privatised natural monopolies?

"Avanti West Coast will also have a new logo: an orange triangle. According to the train operators, the triangle was designed by an independent creative team of more than 100 people working in two locations: an old pickle factory in London and a theatre in Amsterdam''

"The trains, the staff and the entire management team may be staying the same, but passengers on intercity west coast mainline services will next month no longer be boarding a Virgin train but riding on a rebranded, “ready and fit for the future”, Avanti''

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/27/west-coast-train-services-to-be-rebranded-with-avanti-logo

[BobG]

Nationalise the buggers....

BobG

[foxbat]

Can't wait for Jeremy to Nationalise the rail network. Brilliant

[SydneyRover]

Well above the CPI these guys are having a laugh.

"UK rail fares to rise 2.7% in January

Labour says latest above-inflation rise means fares have risen at double the rate of wages over a decade''

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/30/uk-rail-fares-to-rise-27-in-january

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It is an interesting one. The average profit margin is 2%, thus not big at all.

How therefore can prices be reduced and service improved? That doesnt feel an easy thing to do.

[Donnywolf]

Can't wait for Jeremy to Nationalise the rail network. Brilliant

The Pacer Trains will be phased out long before that happens

Would be nice but cant see it happening

[SydneyRover]

It is an interesting one. The average profit margin is 2%, thus not big at all.

How therefore can prices be reduced and service improved? That doesnt feel an easy thing to do.

Rail transport should be a service like water and energy and not run on a for profit basis otherwise it will always be in trouble always asking for bailouts or cutting nonprofitable routes bfyp.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Yes sydney, so you believe there should effectively be a 2% cut to rail fares to run it at break even? Doesn't feel to me like a big saver for people, this is a small profit margin even at the higher rates of ticket increases.  See the problem is labour say they're going to use this to fund the nationalisation, thus how will they then be able to cut fares and subsidise routes etc?

Then, are we to expect employees etc not to grumble further on pay etc or do we just accept that as a cost to the taxpayer too and could labour resist these unions?

[SydneyRover]

Maybe I wasn't clear bfyp, I don't think a profit should come into it at all, give the public a proper train service and get people out of cars, London couldn't run if everyone drove. Give all big cities a 'london' service and interconnect them. It's a public good.

[Sprotyrover]

Maybe I wasn't clear bfyp, I don't think a profit should come into it at all, give the public a proper train service and get people out of cars, London couldn't run if everyone drove. Give all big cities a 'london' service and interconnect them. It's a public good.

the point is lBour intend to use the money generated from the 2% profit margin to fund Nationalisation,so there won't be any fare. Cuts, for decades.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Maybe I wasn't clear bfyp, I don't think a profit should come into it at all, give the public a proper train service and get people out of cars, London couldn't run if everyone drove. Give all big cities a 'london' service and interconnect them. It's a public good.

the point is lBour intend to use the money generated from the 2% profit margin to fund Nationalisation,so there won't be any fare. Cuts, for decades.

Exactly this.  It will.simply need much more funding.  Building infrastructure like London would cost huge sums and is the benefit there?

I could never commute to work by rail for example, I cant see it ever working for many living here. Somewhat ironic when my office is 3 mins walk from a train station.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And yet it works right across Western Europe...

[Sprotyrover]

And yet it works right across Western Europe...

They didn't rip up their city tram systems or do a Beeching on their rail systems! What I find bewildering is Labour totally showing no interest in developing the cross country routes advocated by Gideon in his Northern power house project. Surely that would be a massive vote winner and result in millions of Jobs.is it purely because it was a Tory idea? They have gone off the boil with it! I just don't see the sense!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.

P.91 here.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwis8MLGo5XmAhXGiVwKHcGfARgQFjAAegQIBxAC&usg=AOvVaw1T9SsTRaP20X9ory5skl6I

Labour committing to "Crossrail of the North".

[albie]

Labour going for it now with rail;
https://labourlist.org/2019/12/labour-plans-biggest-ever-rail-fares-cut-to-save-commuters-1000-a-year/
Proper promise to roll back rail to an affordable, publically owned service.

That will put the Tory pledge to increase fares by 2.7% in January into the long grass.
Here is why it is needed;
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKvD-AsWsAkLK0P.png

Getting exciting now!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Ah another expensive pledge outside the costed manifesto.  It's a cost of at least 3 billion pounds a year, more money from the money tree....

Update, we have an answer, vehicle excise duty and reducing road investments.  Doesn't seem sensible to me, great if you can use rail but not really fair on those without that option.

[wing commander]

Oh that's just priceless...For the many not the few,unless the few live within a couple of miles of a railway station.What an absolutely crazy plan, another Labour stealth tax raise resulting in roads in even worse conditions than they are now..

That costed plan is a tough one for even Billy to justify..lol

[SydneyRover]

Just to understand what you mean WC if you could expand on your comment, I don't think they are saying those that have to drive won't be allowed to, that you'll have to give up your car.

The 'many' will benefit in lower pollution and leave the roads clear for those that can't use trains for commuting, deliveries, trades etc.

[wing commander]

Then I will explain what I mean Sydney..They are going to raise money by putting up excise duty which means car tax will go up,which is a stealth tax on everybody including hauliers and businesses which are already going to be mullered by Labour.It means less investment on our roads..

And those that will benefit will be a tiny proportion,most people don't live within 6 miles of a railway station.And it wont lead to clearer roads..

[SydneyRover]

If investment in rail is increased WC more freight can be handled that way which relieves pressure on road transport, damage done to roads by heavy vehicles is a big expenditure and rail is much safer, better to have the bulk of freight handled by rail with the final bit by road.

I haven't seen any figures posted to say how much road tax will have to be increased so it's hard to comment unless you can post the figures/links WC.

Road travel will have to be modified in the near future anyway if the UK wants to tackle fine particle pollution by diesel vehicles plus all the gases that that enter the atmosphere, the choices are fairly obvious unless air quality is improved the cost to lives and health care will be a burden on those in the future.

There is no safe level of pm2.5

Added

This is a citizen science project that measures air pollution with low cost monitor built and distributed around the world by local organizations.

https://luftdaten.info/en/home-en/

[wing commander]

   Well I don't have the figures Sydney but the amount of goods transported in this country by rail will be miniscule and with all the investment in the world it will still be miniscule because there isn't the infrastructure to accomadate it or the appetite,rail freight is a timely process...It just doesn't work for enough people in this just in time world.The only people who this will help will be a few people who could travel by rail but cant afford it on a daily basis at the expence of everybody else

 I'm sorry but you have to draw the line somewhere,you cant just have plan after plan costed by "businesses will pay for it" not if we want to remain competitive with the rest of the world.

It's a absolute crazy plan which has zero hope of being successful absolute madness...

[SydneyRover]

It's difficult to understand how you can call it a crazy plan without providing any data to support your argument WC.

[wing commander]

  The only data I need on this Sydney is 40 years running businesses and the thousands of suppliers I've come across in that time.and do you know how much of the millions and millions of pounds of goods ive bought has come from railfreight?? absolutely none..it's a just in time world,cashflow is everything.Railfreight needs a lorry to take goods to the depot,it then sits there until theres a place on a train,then it get railed from a to b..Then you need to wait until is disembarked and cleared for collection and hope in all that time nothing is damaged.Then you need another lorry to pick it up and deliver to the business who bought it...Best part of three days,countless phone calls and arrangements and a dam site more expensive than saying to a haulier can you pick this up at 7am in Doncaster and deliver it to anywhere in the uk that day....

   Sometimes you need data to argue a point and sometimes you just need a bit of common sense to tell you that something is unworkable..

[Donnywolf]

Living by the main Scunny and Grimsby and Immingham I see lots less Rail traffic than I have ever done

Logical deliveries only - some but less Coal than ever , Bio Pellets for Drax , Sand for "Rockware - or whatever it is these days" and some bulk Steel from Scunny plus one or two Trains of rust coloured sliding roofed wagons *.

Gone are the days of Parcel vans I suppose - as they just dont hold up as WC has just outlined. Times change and who could imagine now the Fish Van trains from Grimsby to "wherever they went". Stick e on a lorry and they are already en route

* Anyone know what they carry ?

[SydneyRover]

Again No one is saying that all freight can or should go by rail but 5% is a low figure which if doulbled would take 76m tonnes off the major roads reducing pollution reducing health costs and improving lives. I get the feeling this is the stuff that the Tories want to kick down the road with brexit, I think it's 3 times they have lost in court over high levels of pollution from road traffic.

[wing commander]

       The only reason some steel is railed from Scunny is for there export business.It can be loaded at the plant which has railway infrastructure and transported straight to the docks which also has railway infrastructure and straight on the ship..Anything else is moved by road hauliers.And that's from a company who has rail facilities on there actual site..

it's a total non starter,not possible,not cost effective whatever the investment in rail,man hour expensive,more risky for delays..So I'm going to stick with a crazy idea which will result in millions of us paying more stealth road tax and benefitting a tiny proportion of the population.

I'm not for one minute against paying extra tax for things but they have to produce value for money investment and this will be a black hole for our money that we wont notice any difference from other than it will harm the economy and add even more cost to business who Labour think seem to be a money pit they can delve into everytime they come with a plan to spend money...

[SydneyRover]

I don't understand how this will be solved unless there is a drastic change to the vehicles on the roads.

 Air pollution: UK government loses third court case as plans ruled 'unlawful'
This article is more than 1 year old

High court says approach to tackling pollution in 45 local authority areas is ‘not sufficient’ and orders urgent changes

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/21/high-court-rules-uk-air-pollution-plans-unlawful

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

       The only reason some steel is railed from Scunny is for there export business.It can be loaded at the plant which has railway infrastructure and transported straight to the docks which also has railway infrastructure and straight on the ship..Anything else is moved by road hauliers.And that's from a company who has rail facilities on there actual site..

it's a total non starter,not possible,not cost effective whatever the investment in rail,man hour expensive,more risky for delays..So I'm going to stick with a crazy idea which will result in millions of us paying more stealth road tax and benefitting a tiny proportion of the population.

I'm not for one minute against paying extra tax for things but they have to produce value for money investment and this will be a black hole for our money that we wont notice any difference from other than it will harm the economy and add even more cost to business who Labour think seem to be a money pit they can delve into everytime they come with a plan to spend money...

Mostly yes, some UK rail goes via train but very minimal internal UK as you say, most of it goes to the channel tunnel really.  Most trains they use are incoming not outgoing - the reason, the costs are massive.

If you put more trains in to goods Sydney that will cut the passenger volumes and speed without a massive investment.

[rtid88]

There needs to be massive changes in this country and across the world....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50614518

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-50621304

These two stories from today alone prove this....the problem is that there is too much money to be made from Freight via a lorry rather than through trains and plastic production is never going to stop unfortunately whilst the likes of Trump and the Chinese pay absolutely no regards to the environment.

Labours plans will at least start to help with some of these issues....this should be regardless of whatever financial cost IMO

[albie]

Some of the discussion of this important policy is missing the point.

Lots of frothing about costs, without considering the net benefits. Some of those are financial, for companies as well as travellers.

Why should rail travel in the UK cost so much more per mile than in other EU countries?

The link on costs I posted shows that the UK is running rail public transport at a much higher charge than countries with better (modern) rail infrastructure, and with comparable economies.

The only reasonable explanation is the business model for the rail industry, sweating the asset of legacy Victorian infrastructure.

By returning to the charging base of the system in 2010, before the 40% increase to 2019 prices, the UK is simply resetting the expectations of the industry and consumers.

The principle of transferring resources from that which needs to reduce (private transport), to that which is better for most (public transport), is obviously correct. It is the same as removing fossil fuel subsidies in favour of increased spending on renewable energy.

What Labour should also do is give priority to buses (electric) in the transport strategy. For me, this is AS WELL as the rail proposal, because they would work in tandem.

Article in the New Statesman makes the case here;
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2019/12/changing-just-one-word-would-make-labours-train-fares-policy-much-much