Something for Labour supporters to ponder

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/end-of-neoliberalism-unfettered-markets-fail-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2019-11

That's a Nobel Prize winning economist saying baldly that the Neoliberal economic era has run into the rocks. Which we all know anyway. 40 years of slower growth and what growth there is, being creamed off by the richest. It's the understandable reason for so much anger with "the elite". It's just that Johnson and Farage have managed to con people that "the elite" they should be upset with are celebrity lefties, so that folk turn their ire on them and leave the rich f**kers to carry on their accumulation of wealth.

On one level, you have to admire the barefaced balls of it.

What's needed if we're really going to address this though, is for Labour to work up a credible and dynamic alternative economic policy, delivered by a credible and dynamic leader.

Should be easy enough.

[selby]

Billy, labours biggest problem is that they have no credible and dynamic members of the party on the front bench to enact anything like that, they are all London centrist nodding donkeys.
  It might hurt them, but if they don't listen to such as Tony Blair and his forecasts as to where they are currently heading, and act now to rid the party of the nutters that are the face of Labour on the TV (the luvies) and the extreme members of momentum, who should be in the Communist Party, they  are heading to be a party in the next twenty years no more significant than the Liberals.
  Most people do not  see themselves as working class anymore, nor do they want to be seen to be working class anymore, and they do not, like my generation mix with older people at work or in their leisure time, who largely set the tone of the way you thought about things.
  Aspirations have changed, youngsters now live for the day, want to look like celebrities, and live their lives accordingly, and from a young age are shovelled everything their heart desires, borrowing money to do so just a fact of life.

[idler]

I agree with most if not all of that Selby. Labour need to get back to basics and provide people in parliament that are credible to more than just a fraction of the electorate.

[SydneyRover]

So busy rubbishing labour Selby you've missed the irony, you're arguing to something that wasn't in question.

[selby]

 Yeh Sydney, you are so clever you  and your like have had your heads stuck up your backside so far, you have ended up insignificant now, and don't realise it is you that has been left behind, Three and a half years of printing diatribe on here has done you the world of good buddy.
 And your eyes are still closed tight shut, with brain disengaged.

[SydneyRover]

So busy getting your gloat in you missed the point, now you get abusive cos you're wrong, nice one selby

[selby]

  Now there is a surprise, I get back from a deal and bingo a fish on the hook, it isn't gloating Sydney, it is the despair that you can't get it in your mind that people are moving away from your take on your vision of how the country should be run.
  People are fed up of being thrust upon by career so called politicians straight out of university, who have never had a meaningful job in their lives preaching to them what is wrong with the world, while publishing manifestos that are only fit to put on a nail at the back of the toilet door.

[SydneyRover]

People show a lot about themselves when they get angry same as when they're drunk

[selby]

  I drink very moderately for socialising, and I am not at all angry, in fact, I find the denial on your part very funny if a little sad really.

[SydneyRover]

Whatever selby

[wilts rover]

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/end-of-neoliberalism-unfettered-markets-fail-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2019-11

That's a Nobel Prize winning economist saying baldly that the Neoliberal economic era has run into the rocks. Which we all know anyway. 40 years of slower growth and what growth there is, being creamed off by the richest. It's the understandable reason for so much anger with "the elite". It's just that Johnson and Farage have managed to con people that "the elite" they should be upset with are celebrity lefties, so that folk turn their ire on them and leave the rich f**kers to carry on their accumulation of wealth.

On one level, you have to admire the barefaced balls of it.

What's needed if we're really going to address this though, is for Labour to work up a credible and dynamic alternative economic policy, delivered by a credible and dynamic leader.

Should be easy enough.

The one important word there Billy is 'delivered'.

How is this going to be delivered'? The media are profoundly anti-Labour and will probably become more so under Johnson. He already has plans to scrap the BBC and Channel 4 because they are not complient enough.

The Tories enrich the tax exile elite who run the media and they do their bit in return by using their outlets as propaganda for them.

They wont give whoever the next leader is a fair hearing - whatever the message - if the party looks like becoming popular in the country they will be smeared like Corbyn - look at the replies in this thread.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

To be frank, I was pointing out that the media issue would loom large against Corbyn. That was a given. Predictable and predicted.

I was told on here (not by you) that the MSM were less important than they used to be, and that social media and new media would tip the balance.

That prediction aged well...

I find the Left complaining now about the MSM, frankly, risible. It's right if course that the media have an unfair effect, but complaining about that is pointless. It's like Japan complaining that it wasn't fair that the Americans had the atomic bomb. Fairness is irrelevant. The existence of the bomb was a fact that had to be taken into account when formulating policy. Similarly, the existence of an aggressive media environment is a fact that Labour MUST take into account. That requires Labour to have to perform far better than the Tories. To have a leader who is media savvy and doesn't dig his own bear traps.

And that was always my main criticism of Corbyn. Right from Day One he gave the MSM ammunition because the compromises he'd have had to make to transcend that were impossible for him.

Early in his reign as Leader, there was the ridiculous shenanigans about whether he would kneel before the Queen. Corbyn tried the blank the issue. That was utterly stupid as it allowed the media to portray him as a revolutionary, and worse...one who wouldn't admit it. Terrible, terrible optics. He should have come out immediately and said "Of COURSE I will kneel. It's the process that has always happened and I'm not interested in making pointless gestures. The Queen is our head of state and I respect that."

Imagine the change in his public image!

But of course, he couldn't do that. Because he wouldn't have been able to look Milne and McCluskey in the eye.

Labour's next leader has GOT to understand this lesson.

[wilts rover]

Nah needs to be more than that Billy. It cant just be the leader it has to be the whole party and the message.

There was too much division behind Corbyn - Johnson/Cummings recognised that and threw the people he disagreed with out of the party.

And that wasn't Corbyn's fault - the people who refused to support Corbyn and were constantly attacking him must also take their share of the blame for his defeat - because if they don't the same will happen to the next leader.

Back onto your original point - and a little on this - have you see this:

https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/status/1199345085239816192

[BillyStubbsTears]

So. Are you saying that if the Labour party had United as one behind Corbyn, he'd have led them to victory?

[Not Now Kato]

So. Are you saying that if the Labour party had United as one behind Corbyn, he'd have led them to victory?

Not trying to answer for Wilts, but for my part I suspect they wouldn't have lost so heavily.

[selby]

  I have watched most of this mornings debate in between other things, Labour have just lost an election very badly, does it look like they have changed one iota, not on your nelly, talk about having their head in the sand, still the same old rhetoric, which is starting to come over as nasty and smacking of striking out in anger.
  The quicker some of this lot are dumped by the party the better for British politics and the proud party they purport to support. They are a million miles away from the party in the past.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Something I don't get about you Selby.

You're very passionate about what you DON'T like.

What actually DO you want? What specific things could Labour offer that would impress you?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BST I would say they need to accept Brexit for one and move on past that.  I also think they need a leader who is less focused on being divisive, someone like Kier Starmer. He has that authoritative professional style that  breeds confidence in voters, not someone shouty like Rayner or Long Bailey, that will turn voters off.

[SydneyRover]

Yeah bfyp, what about some one that can't be trusted even in his own home, can't be trusted with the truth, people's personal safety, their heritage, religion altough it couldn't be anyone from working stock so it norrows it down a bit, maybe labour could get some ideas from the experts the conservatives on how to pick a leader, what do you think?

[drfchound]

Yeah bfyp, what about some one that can't be trusted even in his own home, can't be trusted with the truth, people's personal safety, their heritage, religion altough it couldn't be anyone from working stock so it norrows it down a bit, maybe labour could get some ideas from the experts the conservatives on how to pick a leader, what do you think?

Yet another post looking for the negatives elsewhere rather than the negatives in the Labour Party and what should be done to correct their failings.

[drfchound]

BST I would say they need to accept Brexit for one and move on past that.  I also think they need a leader who is less focused on being divisive, someone like Kier Starmer. He has that authoritative professional style that  breeds confidence in voters, not someone shouty like Rayner or Long Bailey, that will turn voters off.

BFYP, I suggested a few months ago that in my opinion the Labour Party would be far better served with Starmer at the helm.

[selby]

  Syd, they could do worse than ask the Conservatives, after all they have just picked a leader who has run rings around the other parties, stood on their neck and brought the black heads out.

[SydneyRover]

Correct Selby but if johnson is the price you have to pay to win an election the price is too high for me. I move in circles where we have to be squeaky clean, much like the UK labour party because the press/msm are pretty much the same as the UK, dominated by murdoch and the right wing. I've never been a member of a political party and I couldn't support a party that had a leader such as johnson, I'm no saint but I'm not corrupt.

[wilts rover]

It was Brexit, not leftwing policies that lost Labour the election

(warning - contains stats)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election

[Sprotyrover]

It was Brexit, not leftwing policies that lost Labour the election

(warning - contains stats)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election

Getting rid of Brother Jeremy is the biggest mistake the left has ever made, let's start a 'keep Corbyn as leader Poll!

[River Don]

I have to say I think the importance of choosing the right leader, is underestimated. In this media age the leader is the face of the party, the spokesperson for the party, the director of the party, the publics first link to the party. It's got to be someone competent, trustworthy and very articulate.

The left side of politics doesn't win very often in this country. That has to be recognised. Fighting on a left wing platform never wins. That has to be recognised too. The Labour Party hasn't been in power for a longtime now and that too is a big problem. The importance of actually winning should be rising higher up the agenda with every year out of government.

Which all leaves this Labour Party in a very desperate place, with Corbyn lingering on, claiming he won the argument, Unite closing its grip, momentum a key voting block, McDonnell manoeuvring to push the continuity Corbyn candidate firmly in to place. I don't hold much hope to be honest.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It was Brexit, not leftwing policies that lost Labour the election

(warning - contains stats)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election

I'm afraid that, for all her fine work in collating statistics, Ell Smith isn't so hot in drawing conclusions.

The premise running right through that piece is that Labour did as much as it could to hold onto Remain supporters and lost because it lost Leave supporters. She concludes this because Labour's lead over the Tories among Remain supporters was the same that it was in 2017.

But that entirely misses the massive difference between 2017 and 19. In 17, it was still possible to appeal to both Remain and Leave voters, and Corbyn did that we'll. In the atmosphere of 2019, that simply wasn't possible. You had to be clear where you stood in Brexit, and by doing so, you were inevitably going to lose votes on one side or the other. THAT was the electoral issue that Labour misjudged. If they were going to lose Leave votes, it's wasn't good enough to hold the line with Remain supporters. They had to sweep the board with Remain supporters. Instead, the shambolic performance in the first half of 2019 lost Labour the support of millions of those voters, and not enough came back.

The other massive thing she brushes over is the millstone that was Corbyn's unpopularity. And that's unforgivable because, even if she didn't get that in the doorstep like those of us canvassing got, she would have seen the historically bad figures in the polling data that she collated.

As RD says, it is absolutely essential that Labour chooses a leader who can connect with the electorate. If not, as 2019 shows, it doesn't matter if you have all the right and popular economic policies.

[selby]

 Lisa Nandy would be my choice, she is a clever debater,has been a quick witted and clear speaker on programmes such as question time, and stood her corner and argued her points very well, also should appeal to the younger membership, and has the looks to front publicity.
   More importantly she seams to have a clear pathway and vision of the direction the party should take.
  Her problems are not being part of the London bubble, has a northern accent, and even before the election clashed with the far left on policy, the policy that has just failed spectacularly, and whether like minded MP's in the party have the balls to back her to take on Labours current leadership, and momentum within the party that are too extreme for popular British politics. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

So what policies of her's do you like Selby?

[tyke1962]

I'm fully aware the Labour Party have never had a women lead the party but I say so what .

In all honesty I do not see a women who can get anywhere near the capabilities of Keir Starmer and that's nothing to do with gender its a simple fact .

The party needs a person who will hold Johnson to account and there's nobody better than Starmer who tied the tories in knots over Brexit time and time again .

With such a majority we need the best man at the crease .

Please please will the left just go away , what does it take for you people to understand your policies are for the fairies and the electorate don't ever want a left wing government .

The centre is where it's at , three election victories for Tony Blair , how hard is that to understand .

Were Tony Blair and New Labour the party that ticked every box ? , absolutely not but they are far more desirable than any Tory government , all day long .