Something for Labour supporters to ponder

[BillyStubbsTears]

My take Tyke.

I DO think the country would vote for the Labour party's left wing economic and social policies. They are highly popular in polls.

What they will never vote for is a party that has foreign policies which, rightly or wrongly, give the impression that the party doesn't support Britain first and foremost. The Skripal incident was the perfect example. We had an attack on our soil by a hostile state. Our own security services were telling us that's what had happened. Corbyn blanked that for days and suggested that we should send samples of the nerve agent off to Russia for them to analyse.

Meanwhile, the Left on social media went into overdrive, darkly hinting it was a false flag job. There were a couple pushing the same line in here.

It's THAT approach that turns people off to the left. No Labour party will EVER win a majority peddling that line.

I'm coming round to thinking that Starmer is probably the best placed one to combine that domestic radial approach with a harder nosed approach to foreign policy.

[tyke1962]

My take Tyke.

I DO think the country would vote for the Labour party's left wing economic and social policies. They are highly popular in polls.

What they will never vote for is a party that has foreign policies which, rightly or wrongly, give the impression that the party doesn't support Britain first and foremost. The Skripal incident was the perfect example. We had an attack on our soil by a hostile state. Our own security services were telling us that's what had happened. Corbyn blanked that for days and suggested that we should send samples of the nerve agent off to Russia for them to analyse.

Meanwhile, the Left on social media went into overdrive, darkly hinting it was a false flag job. There were a couple pushing the same line in here.

It's THAT approach that turns people off to the left. No Labour party will EVER win a majority peddling that line.

I'm coming round to thinking that Starmer is probably the best placed one to combine that domestic radial approach with a harder nosed approach to foreign policy.

BST

It's a very good point you make , the UK today is a very nationalistic country and proud of its military , now I'm not someone who thinks our military foreign policy isn't without criticism but that's where we are as a nation , electorally it might be a good idea to endorse that and perhaps not wear a white poppy if you want to be a Labour PM , some of our history is perhaps better to leave unsaid .

I'm not against socially progressive policies either , far from it we are the Labour Party after all .

The left's problem is that they can't help themselves from attacking the wealth and go down the class war road .

It's not a great look .

I know what the Tories are , you don't have to tell me as an ex miner who fought the fight and lost .

However the politics of yesterday aren't the politics of today , a Labour Party protest movement is about as much use as tyts on a fish .

We have to be in government to improve working class lives .

A leader who the electorate trust , credible policies and a vision that provides hope , hope that they will make this country a better place .

Johnson will fail , of that I have no doubt , a campaign of lies and hot air that many have fallen for .

I'm reminded of the Tory campaign of 1992 when they lied about the economy and it bit them severely on the ass and were trounced by Blair in 97 .

Get Starmer in , move to the centre and the common sense ground , is it everything I desire no it isn't but for God's sake it's better than Johnson and his right wing henchmen running this country .

[selby]

David Lammy says he is considering standing as leader, He would be the biggest Christmas gift the Tories have ever had if he is elected.

[tommy toes]

A good post tyke.

I'd agree that Starmer is probably the best option but unfortunately Momentum will continue to call the shots and they and McCluskey are getting behind Rebecca Long-Bailey, who is basically Corbyn with a northern accent and a skirt

[wilts rover]

My take Tyke.

I DO think the country would vote for the Labour party's left wing economic and social policies. They are highly popular in polls.

What they will never vote for is a party that has foreign policies which, rightly or wrongly, give the impression that the party doesn't support Britain first and foremost. The Skripal incident was the perfect example. We had an attack on our soil by a hostile state. Our own security services were telling us that's what had happened. Corbyn blanked that for days and suggested that we should send samples of the nerve agent off to Russia for them to analyse.

Meanwhile, the Left on social media went into overdrive, darkly hinting it was a false flag job. There were a couple pushing the same line in here.

It's THAT approach that turns people off to the left. No Labour party will EVER win a majority peddling that line.

I'm coming round to thinking that Starmer is probably the best placed one to combine that domestic radial approach with a harder nosed approach to foreign policy.

Are you referring to me?

I live near(ish) to Salisbury. I know where all the locations are and I know there is no way the poisoning incident happened as it is supposed to have done as reported by the media - as I have said on here several times.

How and why did the two poisoners walk nearly two miles from the Skirpals house with an open bottle of novichock to dump it in a charity collection bin in the centre of Salisbury - whilst re-sealing it in the celaphane and packet to make it look as though it had never been opened? Which is how and where Charlie Rowley found it.

Why did the police officer come down ill straight away when he touched the door handle - but it took 4 hours for the poison to affect the Skripals?

There is only one conclusion I can come too - there was more than one poisoning team and more than one bottle of novichok - which has not been found.

The government want you to believe it is all solved and as they say - so you wont ask questions as to why a Russian defector and target was placed in the middle of a residential community and how the police and MI6 failed to protect him and the local community.

Dont' ask questions or you are a left wing traitor - then they wont spot the mistakes we made or the danger we put you in.

[BigH]

Lisa Nandy would be my choice, she is a clever debater,has been a quick witted and clear speaker on programmes such as question time, and stood her corner and argued her points very well, also should appeal to the younger membership, and has the looks to front publicity.
   More importantly she seams to have a clear pathway and vision of the direction the party should take.
  Her problems are not being part of the London bubble, has a northern accent, and even before the election clashed with the far left on policy, the policy that has just failed spectacularly, and whether like minded MP's in the party have the balls to back her to take on Labours current leadership, and momentum within the party that are too extreme for popular British politics. 

Nope. Sorry. Nandy might be a rising star but she looks and sounds likes she's barely out of the sixth form.

Need a bigger hitter.

[tyke1962]

A good post tyke.

I'd agree that Starmer is probably the best option but unfortunately Momentum will continue to call the shots and they and McCluskey are getting behind Rebecca Long-Bailey, who is basically Corbyn with a northern accent and a skirt

Haven't these Momentum idiots done enough damage and their vanity project .

Don't they realise they condemn the working class to yet more years of Tory rule .

Time to do what Kinnock did in the 80's with Militant Tendency and throw them out of the party .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Can't do that Tyke. They ARE the party now.

It's down to debate and convincing people. Which is difficult because the Left is always correct.

[Sprotyrover]

Don’t worry the Milliband enquiry team will get to the bottom of it!

[tommy toes]

Having said that about Momentum and Long-Bailey etc it seems to be turning out that it was indeed Brexit and us coffin dodgers who decided the outcome and Labours policies were attractive to almost everyone else.

So when the ramifications of Brexit come home to roost and once the honeymoon period is over for Johnson's mob; and people recognise him as an incompetent chancer, then there's a chance Labour, with a charismatic leader,could win the next election, even with their current set up; and even with the proposed boundary changes.
Just hope I'm still around to see it!

[tyke1962]

Can't do that Tyke. They ARE the party now.

It's down to debate and convincing people. Which is difficult because the Left is always correct.

Aye until the country votes on their policies Billy and they get walloped , Michael Foot 83 - Corbyn 2019 , you'd think the penny would have dropped by now .

I'm a Labour man and socially progressive policies are fine but here's the thing and something Blair worked out in the 90's .

Those in society who are at the bottom or who are struggling where left wing policy makers aim are helpless without middle class votes .

Middle England aren't going to vote for those who are struggling in life , they'll vote Labour if taxes are cut and the train journey to work each morning isn't blighted by strikes .

This is society today , very few care about those on the breadline , on minimum wages , zero hours contracts or stuck in the gig economy , selfish beat solidarity decades ago , it is what it is .

You can't help the least well off in society by sitting on the opposition benches with significantly less MP's after each election .

If the left and Momentum want to do the working class a favour I'd suggest they go and form a Socialist Party outside of the Labour movement where they can play out their fantasy politics for as long as they want and stop taking the rest of us down who have to endure decades of Tory governments .

[wilts rover]

All very well and good Tyke - but as I pointed out in a previous post Labour's policies (other than Brexit) were popular with the public.

And as other people have pointed out - it was the middle class who provided a lot of the vote for Labour in the GE, the working class voted Brexit & Tory.

Labour increased their vote share in Canterbury and won Putney - and lost Bassetlaw, Don Valley and Scunthorpe. That wasn't due to middle class voters.

In your world who did Middle England vote for then? Lib Dem?

The Labour Party needs policies and people for the challenges of the 2020's not 1983 or 1997. What it doesn't need are arrogant pillocks like you saying who can or can't be in it.

[tyke1962]

All very well and good Tyke - but as I pointed out in a previous post Labour's policies (other than Brexit) were popular with the public.

And as other people have pointed out - it was the middle class who provided a lot of the vote for Labour in the GE, the working class voted Brexit & Tory.

Labour increased their vote share in Canterbury and won Putney - and lost Bassetlaw, Don Valley and Scunthorpe. That wasn't due to middle class voters.

In your world who did Middle England vote for then? Lib Dem?

The Labour Party needs policies and people for the challenges of the 2020's not 1983 or 1997. What it doesn't need are arrogant pillocks like you saying who can or can't be in it.

Just explain to me how Labour's policies were popular with the electorate when they were absolutely hammered at the ballot box ? .

Don't you think the electorate worked it out that free stuff and nationalisation on cost alone are fairytale policies .

For god sake wilts an increase in vote share in Canterbury and Putney !!!! , we were hammered in the heartlands , the worst election result since 1935 on the back of a serial liar as PM with 9 years of austerity behind them .

How clear do you want it ?

The middle class probably voted for anybody but Labour I'd imagine given the toxicity of the party .

I don't decide who the Labour Party has amongst it's membership or so called support groups such as Momentum , the electorate decides on their worth and popularity and clearly they aren't highly regarded so it would be a good idea to expell or send them on a fact finding mission to Venezuela and see how socialism actually turns out in this day and age and reality if Labour wants to see government in five years time .

There's no appetite for left wing governments in this country , if there was Foot or Corbyn would have beaten Thatcher and Johnson wouldn't they , they were both routed .

You know when you start with the personal abuse you've lost the argument wilts , an argument you lost decades ago but still won't accept it .

[wilts rover]

If you don't believe the stats on the popularity of Labour's policies tyke - that's your problem not mine.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election

If you come on here calling for a Stalinist purge of Labour members you don't like - and you don't like the response you get - that's your problem not mine.

The centre is where it's at! Which is why the Lib Dem's and Change UK did so well is it.

Well done Tony Blair in 1997. Lets see how someone proposing; joining the Euro, unlimited immigration, a public sector funded by PFI, invading countries that are no threat to us with no plan for the aftermath - thus leaving them as centres for international terrorism - gets on in 2020.

[tyke1962]

If you don't believe the stats on the popularity of Labour's policies tyke - that's your problem not mine.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election

If you come on here calling for a Stalinist purge of Labour members you don't like - and you don't like the response you get - that's your problem not mine.

The centre is where it's at! Which is why the Lib Dem's and Change UK did so well is it.

Well done Tony Blair in 1997. Lets see how someone proposing; joining the Euro, unlimited immigration, a public sector funded by PFI, invading countries that are no threat to us with no plan for the aftermath - thus leaving them as centres for international terrorism - gets on in 2020.

I acknowledge the UK is a significantly different country to what it was in 1997 and a return to a pro EU stance will equally end up gifting the tories another 5 years in power .

For what it's worth New Labour under Blair wasn't without flaws and I'll accept that .

I come from a left wing background , ex NUM who fought the fight , when I left the industry I was a union rep for many years and was proud to do so .

My involvement in union work taught me many things , it taught me that the workplace is a two way street and compromise is for the greater interest , profits have to be made , costs have to be examined and pay levels have to be sensible or we all go down the road and where's the sense in that with unrealistic proposals that can't be met .

You have to accept Thatcher changed this country for ever and it won't ever go back to what it was and the greater majority of the electorate don't want it to either .

Individualism has replaced solidarity , most of the young people at my workplace don't know what a trade union is and what's more they don't want to know either , as long as they are ok jack .

McCluskey isn't even relevant today never mind a major influence in the Labour Party , he's toxic and a vote loser , get rid .

The left have taken the party backwards , taken it over on a £3 membership ticket that appeals to many of an age who haven't grasped the realities of life yet , the cost of free stuff and nationalisation apparently comes from someone else and not themselves .

You can't attack the wealth or they go and invest somewhere else .

You work with the conditions of today to gain power and by getting enough of the electorate onside and in to government you are then in a position to raise the living standards of those who need it but without wealth providers you cannot .

Yes we need an efficient NHS fit for purpose , yes we need a massive amount of affordable housing and yes the train industry could be taken back under a nationalisation programme but not everything as Corbyn wanted to do .

It might also be a good idea for Labour to elect a leader without any skeletons in the cupboard and not make it easy meat for the right wing tabloids to attack .

Keir Starmer is such a man , the acceptable face and appealing to middle england .

Bin the fantasy free stuff , stop attacking the wealth and stick to socially progressive policies that the electorate can identify with and are popular , the NHS and affordable housing and then we might have a shot at this in five years time .

[wilts rover]

Tyke, you could have skipped the vast majority of that post which is basically just you having a moan, as only the last paragraph is relevant.

I disagree there was any 'fantasy free stuff', other than broadband which is infrastructure investment and would have paid for itself anyway, but wholeheartedly agree with the rest of it.

The next leader should be the best person for the job. The person whose ideas and personality best connect with the public. I hope it is a woman, as it is embarrassing Labour have never had a female leader, but if it is Keir Starmer or another man, I don't care so long as they are the best person.

What Labour will never do is win power by being factionalised. I advise you to forget about hard-left or centrist and think about what policies should a progressive, left of centre party coalesce around.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

That last paragraph. Does that mean you're going to stop throwing out "Blairite" and "Centrist" as a blunderbuss insult to anyone who criticises any aspect of party policy?

[tyke1962]

Tyke, you could have skipped the vast majority of that post which is basically just you having a moan, as only the last paragraph is relevant.

I disagree there was any 'fantasy free stuff', other than broadband which is infrastructure investment and would have paid for itself anyway, but wholeheartedly agree with the rest of it.

The next leader should be the best person for the job. The person whose ideas and personality best connect with the public. I hope it is a woman, as it is embarrassing Labour have never had a female leader, but if it is Keir Starmer or another man, I don't care so long as they are the best person.

What Labour will never do is win power by being factionalised. I advise you to forget about hard-left or centrist and think about what policies should a progressive, left of centre party coalesce around.

That's all well and good about factionalised but when the policy makers come from the likes of John McDonnell and driven by Momentum and endorsed by McCluskey  it's difficult to escape the hard left rhetoric , throw in Corbyn and Abbott for good measure and you know what Labour are .

We both want the same thing a Labour government we disagree on how we go about that but would you agree the personnel have to change in order to deliver the socially progressive policies that are our historical standard ?

Credibility has to be right at the top of the agenda when electing a leader and his shadow cabinet , the tories may be able to get away with electing a racist , a serial liar , a homophobic with a record of failure in higher office but we don't have that luxury .

Corbyn with lipstick on just won't do .

Everything looks bleak right now but wait a while , there's already rumblings inside the tory party who are wanting tax cuts and they don't want to see Johnson's new friends in the north seeing much investment either .

Tory Party donors to the tune of millions of pounds don't donate so that Leigh and Redcar gets their bus station done up that I do know .

See how this clown Gets His Brexit Done when it comes to negotiating a trade deal with the EU inside 12 months .

Yeh it's possible but only if he concedes ground to the EU on a grand scale and pysses off the ERG to the extent they see their Singapore On Thames wet dream diminish by the bloke they trusted and put in office .

See how he goes managing the economy and the expected downturn .

The fact is 88% of the Tory Campaign consisted of lies and the avoidance of scrutiny .

They own the next five years now and there's nobody else to blame anymore , something Major found out to his cost in 97 .

Credible , credible , credible and some common sense please and we can rout this lot in five years time .

[Sprotyrover]

Pigs will fly before Labour sorts itself out,Momentun is too deeply entrenched.
Is membership still £3.  Drop it to 50 p and then a million hard right of centre true Labour voters in and get momentum kicked out/out voted.

[wilts rover]

Wilts.

That last paragraph. Does that mean you're going to stop throwing out "Blairite" and "Centrist" as a blunderbuss insult to anyone who criticises any aspect of party policy?

Well that depends on the context and content of who and what I am replying to doesn't it Billy - although I dont believe I have ever used the term 'centrist' in my life.

But if you want to continue the factionalising then fair enough, away you go, I doubt it will get Labour in power but Sproty will enjoy it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

Factionalising eh? That's a good one.

You have frequently called me a "Blairite" for disagreeing with you.

You have supported a leadership which has a career-long record of disparaging people who don't share it's views of the policies the Labour movement should follow.

I (someone who has been a Labour party member for most of my adult life) have been told by people who joined the party in 2015 that I am a "Red Tory" that I should "shut the f**k up because it's no longer my party" that "there's no discussion to be had with the likes of you because you're the problem" among many other similar comments.

I've campaigned for Labour through thick and thin over 4 decades while some on the left haughtily decided that supporting Blair and Brown was too far for their principles to stretch to. And those same people have just delivered us the worst election result since the days of Ramsay MacDonald.

I'd have thought a bit of quiet reflection from those who took over the party in 2015 might be in order, rather than shouting the odds at those who predicted this f**king disaster. But then, those on the Left are always right aren't they? It's always the rest of the world that is wrong.

[wilts rover]

Billy, you have spent the best part of 5 years ON HERE complaining about Corbyn and his policies - then feign surprise when the general public don't support them.

I put ON HERE in capitals because you have moaned before about what people call you. Neither I nor I guess anyone else on this board has the least interest in you outside of this board.

If you want to continue factionalising then that is entirely up to you. Away you go, see how well it works for you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

So you regularly calling me a "Blairite" as an insult isn't factionalising then, eh?

And by the way. Once again you ignore the fact that I've supported Corbyn's domestic policies regularly and consistently. What I've criticised is a) his idiotic and infantile Milne-driven foreign policies and b) his quality of leadership.

On a) I seem to be in the company of Rebecca Long-Bailey. On b) a leader who managed to resurrect the corpse of the LDs, convince Leavers he supported Remain and Remainers he supported Leave, and attain the worst LotO poll ratings in history seems worthy of a tiny bit of criticism, don't you think?

[wilts rover]

According to this it was people deserting Labour in the EU elections and the decisions taken after that led directly to the GE defeat:

https://twitter.com/FromSteveHowell/status/1212344485918728192

but you keep telling us how great you are and how much you did to support Labour and its leader Billy.

The LD's lost 9 MP's btw - some resurrection

[tyke1962]

I'm thinking that instead trying to win the party back from the vice like Left control it would be far easier to breakaway and offering those who are of centre thinking a new home .

There could even be an alignment with the Liberal Democrats and The Greens .

A chance to reboot centre politics with a new image and leave the dinosaurs in the Labour Party to it and their socialist utopia  protest movement .

The penny clearly won't drop , the electorate don't want them , historical Labour voters don't want em and they seem to enjoy getting walloped at GE's .

What more can I say   

[BillyStubbsTears]

According to this it was people deserting Labour in the EU elections and the decisions taken after that led directly to the GE defeat:

https://twitter.com/FromSteveHowell/status/1212344485918728192

but you keep telling us how great you are and how much you did to support Labour and its leader Billy.

The LD's lost 9 MP's btw - some resurrection

According to what? The unsubstantiated claims of a factionalist? (I'm at liberty to call him that because he's there chucking the Blairite slur around.)

And he's also a menadcious factionalist.

At the time of the local elections,  Labour and the Tories were both on around 30% of the vote in opinion polls. Labour had lost 10-12% to the LDs and Greens over the first few months of the year. The Tories had lost a similar amount to Farage.

Labour went into a nosedive from there, and by June, had lost another 10% to the LDs.

It was blindingly obvious to anyone (and I predicted it regularly back then) that the Tories would rescue their position by electing Johnson and tacking right to eliminate Farage.

So to suggest, as Howell does, that Labour was set fair in May to win an election later in the year is either mendacity or political naivety of the highest order. You quote him, so you take your pick.

Meanwhile, outside the Church of the Blessed St Jeremy, it was obvious to anyone that Labour was in danger of being entirely eclipsed by the LDs. By early June, Labour were down to the low 20s in the polls and the LDs were up to the high teens.

Anyone who ignores those facts and tries to suggest that Labour would have been just fine if they had supported Leave is either an idiot or has an agenda to push. And I've read enough from you and Howell to know that neither of you are idiots.

Regarding the LDs' performance at the Election, you seem to be determined to be obtuse, so I'll spell it out.

Their vote went up by 1.3m on 2017.
a) Where do you think those votes came from?
b) What effect do you think it had on Labour's performance?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, by the way, in doing the usual thing that the Left does (spinning a legend that it would all have been alright but for the traitors to the right if them in the party) Howell does what the whole of Team Corbyn is doing. He insists that the whole problem was Brexit.

And in doing so, he ignores all the polling evidence that the number 1 reason people deserted Labour wasn't Brexit. It was Corbyn.

[tyke1962]

Meanwhile, by the way, in doing the usual thing that the Left does (spinning a legend that it would all have been alright but for the traitors to the right if them in the party) Howell does what the whole of Team Corbyn is doing. He insists that the whole problem was Brexit.

And in doing so, he ignores all the polling evidence that the number 1 reason people deserted Labour wasn't Brexit. It was Corbyn.

I had to hold my nose and vote Labour last month , it was an extremely difficult decision and my initial thoughts were to not vote at all and I'm a former member and a Labour voter all my life .

The only reason I voted Labour was because I didn't want the embarrassment of having a Tory MP in Barnsley Central because I knew it was going to be a tight thing and I didn't want to see Dan Jarvis kicked out to a Tory because of the idiots who control the party .

A Tory MP in Barnsley !!!!!!!!!

If the Brexit Party hadn't stood and split the vote Dan Jarvis was toast and won by only 3k votes .

It's coming to something when the tories have a sniff round my neck of the woods I can tell you that .

But hey ho they did well in Putney apparently .

[Ldr]

This thread has gone very quiet....

[selby]

  Labour need a completely new  head honcho, Kier Starmer and Long Bailey are supposed to be the front runners.
   They attract completely different factions in the party, Long Bailey the failed Corbynista faction that has alienated the Northern heartlands, and are too radical for most by being linked to momentum.
  And Kier Starmer who is more centre right, but is seen by the same voters as a leader who tried his best to stop Brexit against their wishes.
   Neither them, nor any of the front bench nodding donkeys should even be proposed as leaders of the Labour Party if they have any thought of winning some of the support they lost in the last election ever again.
 They also need to get rid of the just come out of University, have no real experience of life, but you need to live your lives this way, because we know better  than you attitude they portray, and start to realise that the tribal attitudes have changed, not always for the best I might add, and people are more self centred, are more individual and are bothered about policies that effect their lives.