Something for Labour supporters to ponder

[Herbert Anchovy]

  Labour need a completely new  head honcho, Kier Starmer and Long Bailey are supposed to be the front runners.
   They attract completely different factions in the party, Long Bailey the failed Corbynista faction that has alienated the Northern heartlands, and are too radical for most by being linked to momentum.
  And Kier Starmer who is more centre right, but is seen by the same voters as a leader who tried his best to stop Brexit against their wishes.
   Neither them, nor any of the front bench nodding donkeys should even be proposed as leaders of the Labour Party if they have any thought of winning some of the support they lost in the last election ever again.
 They also need to get rid of the just come out of University, have no real experience of life, but you need to live your lives this way, because we know better  than you attitude they portray, and start to realise that the tribal attitudes have changed, not always for the best I might add, and people are more self centred, are more individual and are bothered about policies that effect their lives.

So, according to this, you’d only consider voting for Labour as long as they didn’t have a left wing or centre left leader?

[BillyStubbsTears]

And Selby doesn't like Labour having London-centric leaders. Oh yeah, but he also didn't like them when their leader was MP for Donny, Shadow Chancellor MP for Leeds and Shadow Home Secretary MP for Ponty.

Anybody would think Selby makes his mind up first then finds reasons for it later.

[Herbert Anchovy]

And Selby doesn't like Labour having London-centric leaders. Oh yeah, but he also didn't like them when their leader was MP for Donny, Shadow Chancellor MP for Leeds and Shadow Home Secretary MP for Ponty.

Anybody would think Selby makes his mind up first then finds reasons for it later.

Not forgetting his issue with those out of University, but he’s happy to be led by a self entitled Bullion Boy who’s got a clear grasp of life in towns like Donny of course!!

[tyke1962]

It doesn't matter where the next Labour leader comes from just as long as he isn't consumed by the country's capital city and doesn't take the votes around these parts as a given although I'd like to think that particular penny has now dropped .

What's important are credibility , leadership qualities  and policies that chime with at least 42% of the electorate .

It would also be a significant step forward if the new leader understands that power delivers hope and hope doesn't lead to power .

[selby]

  Herbert and Billy, it seems to me that you are that clever at theories, and busy looking at statistics, that you are failing to look around you and seeing what is happening, I suggest you go out to the pub and go in the bar area and just listen to people.
 It might just open your minds to what people are really thinking.
 By the way Herbert I went off Milliband when attending a local village sports dinner and was selling the raffle tickets. All the local lads were chucking a tenner in when things were not that good some years ago. His nibs asked how much they were, £1 a ticket, he gave me the quid, things must have been hard, probably claimed it back on expenses, his counterfoil didn't go in though.

[Herbert Anchovy]

  Herbert and Billy, it seems to me that you are that clever at theories, and busy looking at statistics, that you are failing to look around you and seeing what is happening, I suggest you go out to the pub and go in the bar area and just listen to people.
 It might just open your minds to what people are really thinking.
 By the way Herbert I went off Milliband when attending a local village sports dinner and was selling the raffle tickets. All the local lads were chucking a tenner in when things were not that good some years ago. His nibs asked how much they were, £1 a ticket, he gave me the quid, things must have been hard, probably claimed it back on expenses, his counterfoil didn't go in though.

Selby, I really don’t understand your logic? It seems to me that it’s irrelevant who Labour select, you’ll find some reason to dislike them. As for looking around, I do this every day and that’s precisely why I’m a Socialist. The country is in an awful mess primarily due to having a Tory Government for the past 9 years & yet you seem happy to continue with the Status Quo that has created these issues. If you’re looking around I’m not sure where you’re looking if you think things are acceptable. For many, many people things are bad but unfortunately we have a Tory Government who promote an ‘I’m alright jack’ attitude that’s lapped up by its supporters.

Maybe you could point out what I’m missing thats going on around me and why its Labours fault??

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Thanks for your advice.

On the subject of listening. I've offered to listen to you several times on what positive things you'd like politicians to do.

Never had a response.

[selby]

  Billy, I want politicians  to stop looking after themselves and do the best for the country.
  You know as well as I do, that over the last three and a half years, the main point has not been Brexit. The Liberal and Labour party have used the subject to try and wrestle power away from the Tories. Most of the analysis and projections used in arguments both for and against are complete guess work, and were fabricated to substantiate  whatever side of the argument they wanted to project. Just a few months ago you were getting excited about the chances of Labour being in power at No 10.  Not stopping Brexit, getting back in power, Sydney another who has an innate hatred of the Tory party. Brexit a subject you could sort out after gaining power.
  Brexit was nothing more than a tool to beat them with, some MP's in Parliament especially  the opposition parties jumping on the band wagon when their own constituents held a completely opposite view to their parties grab for power, and who, to them, Brexit was the main subject
  Well they and you and some other followers on here are going to pay a big price for those shenanigans, Labour will do well to ever be a significant threat for 10 to fifteen years, in fact because of the weight of responsibility all the so called opposition parties now carry of alienating the electorate, there is a good chance that another party could be formed, and overtake them as popular, as long as they stay clear of attracting the failed toss pots from the present opposition. 

[tyke1962]

  Billy, I want politicians  to stop looking after themselves and do the best for the country.
  You know as well as I do, that over the last three and a half years, the main point has not been Brexit. The Liberal and Labour party have used the subject to try and wrestle power away from the Tories. Most of the analysis and projections used in arguments both for and against are complete guess work, and were fabricated to substantiate  whatever side of the argument they wanted to project. Just a few months ago you were getting excited about the chances of Labour being in power at No 10.  Not stopping Brexit, getting back in power, Sydney another who has an innate hatred of the Tory party. Brexit a subject you could sort out after gaining power.
  Brexit was nothing more than a tool to beat them with, some MP's in Parliament especially  the opposition parties jumping on the band wagon when their own constituents held a completely opposite view to their parties grab for power, and who, to them, Brexit was the main subject
  Well they and you and some other followers on here are going to pay a big price for those shenanigans, Labour will do well to ever be a significant threat for 10 to fifteen years, in fact because of the weight of responsibility all the so called opposition parties now carry of alienating the electorate, there is a good chance that another party could be formed, and overtake them as popular, as long as they stay clear of attracting the failed toss pots from the present opposition.

I have to disagree with your view that Labour will not be a significant player for the next 10 to 15 years .

Under its present marionettist's  I'd agree but I'm reading Keir Starmer has the support to win should he stand as leader which I think he will .

The next five years contain as much potential for economic meltdown and social unrest as you are likely to to see .

The Tory Party election manifesto was particularly light and lacking in detail much past the first 12 months in government .

Scutiny avoided and 88% of it lies .

Johnson seems to be the man of the moment , he may not want to show his face around these parts in 2 years time to say the least .

It will be his new found friends in the North who will pay the highest price when the downturn occurs and there will be a downturn , the only question is how severe will it be  ? .

The country may well be ready for a return to grown up politics in five years time and a credible PM .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Tough to know where to start there.

1) You want politicians who are for the country not for themselves? But you're celebrating us having a PM who engineered Brexit precisely to further his own career!

2) You think that Labour and the LDs resisted Brexit purely for party political reasons? Where's your evidence for that? The Labour party MEMBERSHIP (who drive policy) were against the Brexit that we have got as a matter of principle, because of the damage it will do to the country. Corbyn just wanted Brexit done because he knew it was a vote loser for Labour, and because at heart he was always a Leaver.

3) But you still haven't answered the core of my question. What POLICIES do you want a party to put forward to attract your vote?

[wilts rover]

Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned

2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.

The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?

Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from  people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.

Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?

[tyke1962]

Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned

2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.

The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?

Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from  people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.

Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?

Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .

Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .

I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .

Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .

Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .

The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .

I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .

[wilts rover]

Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned

2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.

The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?

Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from  people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.

Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?

Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .

Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .

I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .

Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .

Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .

The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .

I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .

Tyke - what are you talking about?

My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.

Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.

Stupidity is never a good look.

[tyke1962]

Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned

2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.

The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?

Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from  people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.

Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?

Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .

Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .

I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .

Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .

Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .

The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .

I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .

Tyke - what are you talking about?

My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.

Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.

Stupidity is never a good look.

Because reading your posts leaves me to belief you think the left have something to offer the electorate .

The sort of offerings that the electorate don't buy and lead us having to accept Tory governments as a consequence .

I'm not prepared to accept it and I will take make you and any left wing view accountable .

I don't shy away from debate and I welcome criticism of my own views .

I'm a very pragmatic Labour voter with a deep dislike of the Tory Party and who they represent and their motives .

I wouldn't be doing justice to myself to not question a flawed vehicle that handed the keys to a Tory Government on a plate .

It's not personal , it is what it is .

[SydneyRover]

Here's a question for you Selby, when was the last time you voted Labour in a general election and if you did why?

[selby]

  Sydney 2017 because I believed them when they said they would accept the result of the referendum, which meant a lot to me even though I voted to remain in it. During the campaign that followed I got more and more agitated by the remain stance against the wishes of the electorate and vowed never to vote for them again in my life, unless they backed the referendum result that became more and more obvious, the labour party in Westminster were not going to do, and were only using the subject to gain power for themselves.
  Until 1978 I lived in the Doncaster North constituency and voted like everone else Labour. I then moved into the Selby area (Conservative) and continued to vote Labour, moving in 1992 to my present address and until 2019 voted Labour, until in the last election for the first time in my life, I decided I wanted no more  of Corbyn, Lammy, and loads of other shitheads representing my vote.
  When it comes to lies, the remainers who renegaded on their promise to respect the vote told the biggest and most insulting lie ever to be put to the electorate, and have now paid their price, and have as a result had their little elite world shoved up their backsides and rightly so. 
  Like Lion I live in the Brigg Goole constituency, the Conservative MP (Andrew Percy) has now a massive majority, works hard for the area, puts a lot of energy into attracting new industries and has actually been to meetings in my village of less than a thousand occupants and  sends a circular round at regular intervals and keeps people informed about local issues.
  In the election only one house had a labour poster in a window in an admittedly strung out village, and had no contact at all with the labour candidate who I have no idea who it was, and unless my wife threw any correspondence away unknown to me, no postal contact at all.
 

[SydneyRover]

So then you voted for a party that wrecked the economy and wanted to leave with a leader that has never kept his word in his life? that's some epiphany but thanks for you're answer.

[Sprotyrover]

So then you voted for a party that wrecked the economy and wanted to leave with a leader that has never kept his word in his life? that's some epiphany but thanks for you're answer.
Sydders Labourr would have done a far better job of wrecking the economy that's why folks voted Conservative.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Still not a word from you, Selby, on what policies you want to see.

A constant stream of what you don't like, but not a murmur on what you DO like.

[selby]

  Rovers, Beer, and Ladies in that order Billy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think you have your priorities badly wrong Selby.

[wilts rover]

Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned

2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.

The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?

Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from  people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.

Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?

Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .

Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .

I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .

Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .

Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .

The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .

I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .

Tyke - what are you talking about?

My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.

Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.

Stupidity is never a good look.

Because reading your posts leaves me to belief you think the left have something to offer the electorate .

The sort of offerings that the electorate don't buy and lead us having to accept Tory governments as a consequence .

I'm not prepared to accept it and I will take make you and any left wing view accountable .

I don't shy away from debate and I welcome criticism of my own views .

I'm a very pragmatic Labour voter with a deep dislike of the Tory Party and who they represent and their motives .

I wouldn't be doing justice to myself to not question a flawed vehicle that handed the keys to a Tory Government on a plate .

It's not personal , it is what it is .

So Kier Starmer is wrong then when he  "urged the party not to lurch to the right and said the case for a “bold and radical” Labour government was as important as ever."

and Lisa Nandy when she said: Trust was the issue, not the radicalism, not the deep fundamental change we were promising, but trust'.

[Ldr]

Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned

2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.

The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?

Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from  people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.

Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?

Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .

Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .

I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .

Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .

Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .

The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .

I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .

Tyke - what are you talking about?

My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.

Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.

Stupidity is never a good look.

Because reading your posts leaves me to belief you think the left have something to offer the electorate .

The sort of offerings that the electorate don't buy and lead us having to accept Tory governments as a consequence .

I'm not prepared to accept it and I will take make you and any left wing view accountable .

I don't shy away from debate and I welcome criticism of my own views .

I'm a very pragmatic Labour voter with a deep dislike of the Tory Party and who they represent and their motives .

I wouldn't be doing justice to myself to not question a flawed vehicle that handed the keys to a Tory Government on a plate .

It's not personal , it is what it is .

So Kier Starmer is wrong then when he  "urged the party not to lurch to the right and said the case for a “bold and radical” Labour government was as important as ever."

and Lisa Nandy when she said: Trust was the issue, not the radicalism, not the deep fundamental change we were promising, but trust'.

Yes

[wilts rover]

Thanks Ldr.

No offence but I know if you disagree with them they must be doing something right.

[Ldr]

Thanks Ldr.

No offence but I know if you disagree with them they must be doing something right.

So you dont want Labour to appeal to floating voters then? Be hard to win elections without us

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.

Funny thing is. Radical economics works when it is tried out. And the results are wildly popular.

https://kontrast.at/portugal-economy-right-wing/amp/?fbclid=IwAR0tIXdPeXiSjClCLnxCfyUave5grijLOLhvwPUBmDaXzSLNPd1o0L7gp70&__twitter_impression=true

Forgive if this sounds like a dig, but what you are doing, and Tyke to some extent, is falling prey to the allure of what Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman calls "Very Serious People". By that, he means so called experts who appear gravely serious and believable when they stroke their beards and sadly nod their heads and say that radical economics won't work.

They SOUND serious. They are actually ignorant of the facts.

[tyke1962]

Ldr.

Funny thing is. Radical economics works when it is tried out. And the results are wildly popular.

https://kontrast.at/portugal-economy-right-wing/amp/?fbclid=IwAR0tIXdPeXiSjClCLnxCfyUave5grijLOLhvwPUBmDaXzSLNPd1o0L7gp70&__twitter_impression=true

Forgive if this sounds like a dig, but what you are doing, and Tyke to some extent, is falling prey to the allure of what Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman calls "Very Serious People". By that, he means so called experts who appear gravely serious and believable when they stroke their beards and sadly nod their heads and say that radical economics won't work.

They SOUND serious. They are actually ignorant of the facts.

I'm no expert Billy by any means but whether there's any merit in radical policies is neither here nor there in the UK .

The country simply won't vote that way in the numbers you need to win elections .

Whether we like or not this is a Tory country and they are difficult to beat in GE's .

Not enough people trust radical , it frightens them and so they vote safe .

The establishment and the media tycoons will simply trash this stuff , remember Miliband's slight lurch to the left , he then became Red Ed .

You can't beat the system , they have this thing stitched up .

Blair knew the importance of getting the media onside and distancing himself from the unions and the left .

He routed the Tories and then he went to work improving the lives of working class people , the NHS , new schools , the minimum wage , he built thousands of thousands of affordable housing through housing associations .

Roll that manifesto out with a left wing hat on and he wouldn't have got near government .

Blair showed how you can win and still improve lives for the working class .

Image and cedibility are where it's at , radical has none in the UK .

[Ldr]

What I'm saying is that any party wanting to win a UK general election needs to woo floating voters, nothing more, nothing less

[tyke1962]

Another thing you hear the left say is ....

" Our policies wouldn't be considered radical in Scandinavia "and it's perfectly true they wouldn't and what's more they seem to work fine .

The only flaw is that this isn't Scandinavia so their point is neither here nor there .

Different electorate with different values going on there .

I'll say once again Power Brings Hope , it ain't the other way round .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

I beg to differ.

The policies I'm talking about are extremely popular in polls. Labour need to do a credible and very long duration job of setting out the detail and pushing the way they would fund it. Relentlessly. Over and over.

What they don't need to do is to publish a manifesto in an election with surprises like free broadband and then a couple of days later say "oh aye. And we'll find £60bn for the WASPI women." That was suicidal.

There's another thing as well. The Tories have controlled the political agenda on spending for so long that people now think Austerity is a law of physics. So you had people saying (and I heard it on a doorstep in Kiveton) "I like Labour's NHS policy but how will they pay for it?" Labour has to break that mindset. Or you had people saying that nationalisation won't work in practice.

And here's a thing. It's easy. They could hammer on the fact that under Blair and Brown, Labour DID massively increase funding for hospitals and schools. They DID nationalise Railtrack and the East Coast Main Line and they worked excellently. Far better than they did in the private sector.

Labour has a proud record on those topics.

So...

Why on earth weren't the leadership passionately selling that line? When did you EVER hear Corbyn praise anything done by the last Labour Govt on the economy or services?

We've had a decade of the Tories saying the last Labour Govt was shite. We've had half a decade of the Labour leadership agreeing with them. And THEN expecting people to trust Labour...