The obscenity of football finances...

[BillyStubbsTears]

...in one graph.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1220109254964715521

Man Utd have spent almost a billion quid on their current squad. A four fold increase in a decade. And they are likely to finish upper-mid table.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Some of our posters who indulge in twitter, would do well to follow Maguire who provides regular updates on clubs finances. It's very sobering.

[Bentley Bullet]

Aye, all those Rovers fans demanding we spend a billion quid on getting out of League One should go and support Man Utd!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's the knock-on effect by the way.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1220115615739981826

Look at that again.

Burnley FC have a squad that has cost £95.6m to purchase.

[SydneyRover]

ManU fans streaming out early last night didn't seem to be impressed with the spend.

[adamtherover]

In the last 10 years Bournemouth apparently have a net spend of over 200 million quid!!    Little old Bournemouth eh?  Liverpool have only spent 300 !!!   

[Donnywolf]

.... and dont forget Man U NEVER buy the Title according to the "blinkered ones"

Well this Season they wont - currently trying to buy a Champions League spot !

The unfortunate thing for them as happened to Liverpool a while back is that players with mega bucks wanting to "win Trophies" will give Man U a swerve as they are likely/certain to get Champions League football at other Clubs who may be trying to sign them

[Colin C No.3]

Here's the knock-on effect by the way.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1220115615739981826

Look at that again.

Burnley FC have a squad that has cost £95.6m to purchase.

I’ve always thought Burnley are the club we ought to be modelling ourselves on.

[Metalmicky]

Here's the knock-on effect by the way.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1220115615739981826

Look at that again.

Burnley FC have a squad that has cost £95.6m to purchase.

I’ve always thought Burnley are the club we ought to be modelling ourselves on.

I agree - except when they signed Stocky.....

[BillyStubbsTears]

The point is the utterly obscene non-linearity in reward in modern day football.

When we beat Burnley in early 2011, their squad was already inflated in price because of having had the previous season in the PL. According to those figures, their squad had cost something like £13-17m to put together. I'm guessing ours would have cost about £2-2.5m (mainly spent on Sharp with smaller amounts on Stock, Hayter, Keegan(?) Coppinger). So that was a ratio of about 6:1.

Since then, they have become a mid-table PL side and we've averaged somewhere around the top 6 of Tier 3. Their squad now has cost about £100m, ours is...what? £0.5m? Mainly Ben Whiteman. So that's a ratio of 200:1.

That is a ridiculously non-linear outcome for a few years of different trajectory. And (assuming Burnley don't mismanage) that sets a gulf between us and them for half a century.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I keep coming back to the parachute payments as an unfair disproportionate leg up. With the money clubs receive in the Premier League they should be able to make contingencies should they drop out. That should at least temper the risks they take and should enable other clubs to narrow the margin in the Championship otherwise, we'll have an unhealthy pyramid if we haven't already!

[Colin C No.3]

The point is the utterly obscene non-linearity in reward in modern day football.

When we beat Burnley in early 2011, their squad was already inflated in price because of having had the previous season in the PL. According to those figures, their squad had cost something like £13-17m to put together. I'm guessing ours would have cost about £2-2.5m (mainly spent on Sharp with smaller amounts on Stock, Hayter, Keegan(?) Coppinger). So that was a ratio of about 6:1.

Since then, they have become a mid-table PL side and we've averaged somewhere around the top 6 of Tier 3. Their squad now has cost about £100m, ours is...what? £0.5m? Mainly Ben Whiteman. So that's a ratio of 200:1.

That is a ridiculously non-linear outcome for a few years of different trajectory. And (assuming Burnley don't mismanage) that sets a gulf between us and them for half a century.

When I said we should use Burnley as a template to build on, I used them because our paths crossed in the early to mid 80's at a time when Rovers were arguably in a 'better position' than Burnley.

The demographics of both clubs are similar, we both had teams in the 80's that had 'bigger neighbours' within an hours travelling time of us resulting in a loss in fan base & yet, they have gone on to be a successful well managed club who despite having the smallest ground capacity still manage to 'dig in' & continue to play Premiership football with all the financial rewards that brings, which they plough back into the club by buying & improving their training ground & facilities, extending their scouting network, involving themselves in community projects & refuse to pay ridiculous money on transfers & wages.

In doing so (granted they had parachute money to fall back on) this sound base has enabled them to bounce from relegation in 2014/15 season, back into the Premiership.

This is a club 4 miles down the road from me. I pass the ground at least once a week, tucked in between terraced housing, little boozers & the obligatory mosque. It has large portraits of former Burnley footballing 'heroes' hanging from the brickwork of the main entrance. I know Burnley supporters. They're proud of what their club have achieved & speak of it without arrogance. They still talk about 'The Orient Game'.

In 1986/87 season the Football League had brought in a new ruling whereby the team that finished bottom of Division 4 (both Rovers & Burnley were in that division) would be automatically relegated into The Conference. Burnley were bottom going into the last game of the season playing at home to Leyton Orient who even if they managed to beat, would only still avoid relegation if Lincoln lost their last game. Burnley won 2-1 & Lincoln lost. They were that close to going out of the league, the rest as they say is history.

We could have become what Burnley are today. As Marlon Brando said in 'On the Waterfront', "I (we) could have been a contender".

 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, at the other end of the scale.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1220090641906065411

This is very sad. I hope they pull it round.

[Colin C No.3]

That could just as easily have been our path (or worse) in 1998.

[keith79]

Can someone  post one for our team.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Can't you?

[ravenrover]

For some reason Twitter keeps stopping when I try to access the link, does the graph show net spend as in income from sales and expenditure on sales that would be particularly interesting in Liverpools case

[keith79]

Can't you?

I don't know how 😞

[silent majority]

I've never seen a detailed one for DRFC. I've seen some where we've been part of another clubs analysis, but not one focussed on us.

This guy has been consistent over the years;

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/ but now restricts his output to twitter https://twitter.com/SwissRamble

[NickDRFC]

It’s not possible to do one for DRFC unless someone who has access to the full accounts did it - the last time we stated our turnover in publicly available accounts was the year ended June 2015 (£5m).

[NickDRFC]

The point is the utterly obscene non-linearity in reward in modern day football.

When we beat Burnley in early 2011, their squad was already inflated in price because of having had the previous season in the PL. According to those figures, their squad had cost something like £13-17m to put together. I'm guessing ours would have cost about £2-2.5m (mainly spent on Sharp with smaller amounts on Stock, Hayter, Keegan(?) Coppinger). So that was a ratio of about 6:1.

Since then, they have become a mid-table PL side and we've averaged somewhere around the top 6 of Tier 3. Their squad now has cost about £100m, ours is...what? £0.5m? Mainly Ben Whiteman. So that's a ratio of 200:1.

That is a ridiculously non-linear outcome for a few years of different trajectory. And (assuming Burnley don't mismanage) that sets a gulf between us and them for half a century.

I’m not entirely sure the point you’re making here. Our fortunes have been completely different to Burnley - since then they’ve become an established PL club whilst we’ve not even been in the Championship for 5 and a half years. It’s commonplace for a PL team to spend money even these days whereas at our level players rarely move for fees. It stands to reason that their squad will be significantly more expensive than ours, and there will have been a divergence from when we were playing in the same league.

Surely a more relevant analysis would be to look at similar teams in Feb 2011 to us and Burnley now? Burnley are 13th and a pretty established PL team, in Feb 11 Everton were 13th. Their squad at the time I reckon cost about £60m to put together, so if Burnley’s is £100m then you can certainly see a jump there.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nick.

I think your approach ignores the point I'm making. Which is that the financial rewards and penalties of success and failure are divorced from anything which remotely resembles natural justice. It's a system that is designed to reward then entrench the benefits that a club gets if it just has 3-4 years of success. And, as we are seeing with Chesterfield, it is a system that is amplifying the damage that a few seasons of underperformance produces.

I think that is fundamentally immoral.

[Colin C No.3]

Nick.

No. You're approach ignores the point I'm making. Which is that the financial rewards and penalties of success and failure are divorced from all anything which remotely resembles natural justice. It's a system that is designed to reward then entrench the benefits that a club gets if it just has 3-4 years of success. And, as we are seeing with Chesterfield, it is a system that is amplifying the damage that a few seasons of underperformance produces.

I think that is fundamentally immoral.

It depends on your definition of success.

If you’re talking about a club in the football league, out of your 3 to 4 years of success you get promotion from 2 of them, then potentially you will have moved by the very least from being a league 2 club to a Championship club with all the extra revenue that would bring.

Conversely, if your ‘few seasons of underperformance’ as you choose to put it (as opposed to 3 to 4 unsuccessful years) & 2 of those ‘unsuccessful’ years sees you relegated from the same starting point initially, i.e league 2, then unfortunately you may well see your club plying its trade in the Northern League or lower with all the loss of revenue, inability to bring in players, a fall off in support which unless you are fortunate enough to find some rich benefactors, could well see your club even fold.

It’s nothing to do with ‘natural justice’ ( which I find a rather strange wording to use when we’re talking about football), it’s about the rewards of success & the declines that ‘failure’ bring in this sport.

In other words you’re stating the bleedin obvious!

‘Fundamentally immoral’? Jeez, it’s like the closing statement from the leading barrister for the prosecution.

It’s football. Keep it real.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Colin

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, over the last decade, the ratio of Burnley's squad cost to ours has gone from about 6/1 to about 200/1.

At no time in the history of the game, until this past decade, could two sides' financial clout have changed so abruptly.

If you don't find that utterly ridiculous and, yes, immoral, then we have different views of what sport should be.

[Colin C No.3]

Billy

In an earlier thread, I pointed out why that was the case.

From the mid 80’s onwards Burnley despite, at that time, having roughly the same financial ‘problems’ facing them as we had, the same fan base numerically, arguably the same level of players abilities, have nevertheless gone on to improve their status in the game to such an extent, they were able to play their way to ‘the top table’ which they found was groaning with riches some of which, naturally, dropped into their laps.

Now, they didn’t ask for the obscene (yes it is obscene) monies that have come their way through their own successes, they earned them, leaving Doncaster Rovers in their wake. And yes, the financial gap & resources between the two clubs is now massive, huge, gigantic, but immoral?

We all know the Premiership is a world unto itself. Within that league are at least a further ‘3 mini leagues’. A perennial top six ( yet Leicester with good management & benefactors have broken into that ‘perennial six’ & long may that last with other clubs following their lead), teams that kick about mid table & the usual battlers against relegation. There have been constant ‘threats’ of a European League for the top, richest, largest followed clubs.

It is what it is. No one is under any illusions about the obscene wages, transfer fees, agent’s involvements etc.

I would die a happy man if my Rovers could become an established Championship club. But if you offered me a season or two in the Premiership, I’d bite your hand off.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I posted this just a bit ago, I think wages is a fair comparison to use for us?

Here's what the total wages were in millions - overall club not just players.

08/09 Championship £5.7m
09/10 Championship £5.9m
10/11 Championship £6.7m
11/12 Championship £8.3m
12/13 League 1 £6.3m
13/14 Championship £6.6m
14/15 League 1 £3.7m
15/16 and onwards ????

Interesting to see that dip in 14/15. Trouble at the mill of course at that time, but since then probs back to around £6m.

[dickos1]

I can’t see how you’d think it’s gone up again over the last 3 years

[Bristol Red Rover]

What stands out for me is the overall aim behind this imbalance which is about brand EPL, and in more recent times also about The Championship as a possible EPL2 brand.

So encouraging several teams that can compete on the Euro stage which have international appeal - Liverpool, Manc C and U, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal. West Ham set up to join these but haven't made the grade so far - maybe Leeds will?! And then a bunch of other clubs giving the above good competition to make the EPL attractive, hence the parchute payments. A nice turn around with the Championship top runners keeps it fresh, and there's always a wild card or two in there that can upset it for extra interest eg Leicester.

League 1 and below simply doesn't figure in all this. With an EPL2, League 1 may begin to get a little more, but maybe not. I can't recall the parachute payments from the Champ to League 1, but that is about the Champ not League 1.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I can’t see how you’d think it’s gone up again over the last 3 years

I think it's higher than in that last figure, but who knows, maybe someone has something concrete to offer there?

[silent majority]

I can’t see how you’d think it’s gone up again over the last 3 years

I think it's higher than in that last figure, but who knows, maybe someone has something concrete to offer there?

The average in the Championship this season is about £25k a week, with some players, i.e. Bamford at Leeds on £40k a week.

The average in Lg1 is about £2,100.