This isn't the Brexit I voted for (part 2)...

[SydneyRover]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

[selby]

  It is Sunday, gods day, and I find myself agreeing with a post by Sydney, it is truly a miracle.

[tyke1962]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

[Glyn_Wigley]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

[tyke1962]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm fascinated how none of the virulent anti-EU lot have anything to say about the €3.3bn of funding that South Yorkshire was going to get from the EU had we stayed in. A torrent of complaints about minor costs of membership to us in SY. Not a peep about that funding.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.

And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?

PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Some good that did eh Tyke. Cos it's right back on the table now, with no way whatsoever to stop it if the Govt decided that's what is happening.

That's an outcome that the Leave side insisted was Project Fear in 2016. It's an outcome that has never ever had anything remotely close to majority support. But that's where we are heading now, with no way to prevent the Govt (elected with 44% of the vote) from doing it.

[tyke1962]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.

And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?

PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.

It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .

A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .

[Glyn_Wigley]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.

And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?

PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.

It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .

A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .

So they aren't accountable and don't hold the government to account, then?

[tyke1962]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Some good that did eh Tyke. Cos it's right back on the table now, with no way whatsoever to stop it if the Govt decided that's what is happening.

That's an outcome that the Leave side insisted was Project Fear in 2016. It's an outcome that has never ever had anything remotely close to majority support. But that's where we are heading now, with no way to prevent the Govt (elected with 44% of the vote) from doing it.

Tends to happen when you have an opposition as clueless as the Labour Party are and get walloped .

There are many ingredients in a disaster pie Billy not just 52% of the pastry .

This principled man lost his seat as a consequence , a man who served his constituents since 1970 .

Still the younger generation will easily replace him hey !!

You might want to listen to him and dwell on his comments from two years ago .


https://youtu.be/3xIpjA6dol8

[tyke1962]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.

And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?

PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.

It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .

A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .

So they aren't accountable and don't hold the government to account, then?

You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .

I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .

[Glyn_Wigley]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.

And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?

PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.

It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .

A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .

So they aren't accountable and don't hold the government to account, then?

You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .

I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .

Ah, so now you saying the House Of Lords being accountable and holding the government to account isn't a fact, it's just your opinion?

And far from putting things in your mouth, I'm trying to understand these words that DID come out of your mouth:

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account

hold any water whatsoever.

PS I might not have 30 years experience of union work, but I do have 20 years experience of conducting interviews under caution under my belt.

[wilts rover]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.

Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .

Some good that did eh Tyke. Cos it's right back on the table now, with no way whatsoever to stop it if the Govt decided that's what is happening.

That's an outcome that the Leave side insisted was Project Fear in 2016. It's an outcome that has never ever had anything remotely close to majority support. But that's where we are heading now, with no way to prevent the Govt (elected with 44% of the vote) from doing it.

Tends to happen when you have an opposition as clueless as the Labour Party are and get walloped .

There are many ingredients in a disaster pie Billy not just 52% of the pastry .

This principled man lost his seat as a consequence , a man who served his constituents since 1970 .

Still the younger generation will easily replace him hey !!

You might want to listen to him and dwell on his comments from two years ago .


https://youtu.be/3xIpjA6dol8

Does your comment include the members of the Labour Party who said dont have an election until Brexit is resolved or you will get walloped?

If only we had such astute politicans as Jo Swinson who thought she could become PM after 'winning' the EU elections and was the primary reason we had the last GE.

The government was elected by 36% of the voting population btw. But 100% of us will suffer the consequences.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

So let me get this right.

We had a referendum that voted Leave in 2016.

In that referendum, the idea of leaving with no deal was never seriously discussed. And when it was, it was shouted down as Project Fear by the Leave side. In fact, the precise form of Leave we'd end up with was never discussed. It was just hand waving "Oh we'll sort that out later" stuff.

Agreed up to here? Just yes or no. You'd be silly not to agree because it's established fact.

We have never had an opinion poll in which anything close to a majority wants No Deal?

Still with me? Again, you can feel free to demur, but that would be silly because it's a fact.

No we have a Govt openly touting that we walk away from negotiations in 4 months, and start preparing for No Deal.

Agreed?

So let me get this straight. You reckon that those who advocated a second referendum to prevent PRECISELY this outcome are such traitors to democracy that you want never ever support their party again?

Just indulge me. Run by me the logic by which you arrive at that conclusion.

[BobG]

You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .

I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .
[/quote]

Not sure that's a particularly strong argument to use Tyke given the disastrous mess that union leadership generally has made of unionism over the last 40 years. Oddly enough that looks rather like the timescale you claim to have been involved...

Poor old Tony Blair was right wasn't he? What this country needs, very badly indeed, is 'Education. Education. Education'. Otherwise, on the evidence of this thread, there seems to be no other way to remove the curtains of wilful, self inflicted blindness.

Regards

BobG

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

So let me get this right.

We had a referendum that voted Leave in 2016.

In that referendum, the idea of leaving with no deal was never seriously discussed. And when it was, it was shouted down as Project Fear by the Leave side. In fact, the precise form of Leave we'd end up with was never discussed. It was just hand waving "Oh we'll sort that out later" stuff.

Agreed up to here? Just yes or no. You'd be silly not to agree because it's established fact.

We have never had an opinion poll in which anything close to a majority wants No Deal?

Still with me? Again, you can feel free to demur, but that would be silly because it's a fact.

No we have a Govt openly touting that we walk away from negotiations in 4 months, and start preparing for No Deal.

Agreed?

So let me get this straight. You reckon that those who advocated a second referendum to prevent PRECISELY this outcome are such traitors to democracy that you want never ever support their party again?

Just indulge me. Run by me the logic by which you arrive at that conclusion.

Well I can only speak for myself on how I understood what was written on the referendum ballot paper .

Remain In The EU

Leave The EU

How simple could it possibly be ?

Well apparently it became ambiguous  surprising as that maybe when the wrong result was delivered .

Now I presume if Remaining in the EU had won then there wouldn't be any ambiguity about it , we would have stayed as we are , end of story .

But apparently the exact opposite of Remaining in the EU which is Leaving the EU is too difficult to understand .

I understood it to leave the EU in it's entirety because that's what it said on the ballot paper as Remaining in the EU meant errrr ........ we remain .

The truth is the wrong result came in and so the pantomime began .

Ah well we never said anything about trade , single market , immigration etc etc etc

Yes you did , you said leave the EU and as I say I understood it as was written down for me on the ballot paper .

It's impossible not to have it put to you in more honest and clear terms .

As I say I only speak for myself .

I had no part of the Leave Campaign in fact I turned off from it , bored me to tears .

I'd made up my mind decades ago about the EU and didn't need Farage to tell me what's what .

[tyke1962]

You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .

I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .

Not sure that's a particularly strong argument to use Tyke given the disastrous mess that union leadership generally has made of unionism over the last 40 years. Oddly enough that looks rather like the timescale you claim to have been involved...

Poor old Tony Blair was right wasn't he? What this country needs, very badly indeed, is 'Education. Education. Education'. Otherwise, on the evidence of this thread, there seems to be no other way to remove the curtains of wilful, self inflicted blindness.

Regards

BobG
[/quote]

I've yet to meet any union basher who didn't want enhanced overtime rates , holidays with pay  , a big fat redundancy cheque or have his back covered with health and safety .

No sir ..... that's definitely never happened .

[SydneyRover]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

Apologies for my late reply my laptop has suffered abuse and is being repaired,

I mean of course Tyke that the general public do not get a say in HOL appointments, where's the democracy? where do the people have their say. The very fact that they are  required to be 'lords' perpetuates a theme of privilege and they are appointed or nearer to the mark stacked by the government of the day. Look what is happening to Bercow, had the temerity to stand up for democracy and they verbal him for political retribution. The public cannot appt nor sack and some may take their position seriously but I think there is a goodly few allowance collecting.

''Equality bill: churches and campaigners demand clarity on religion's exemption

European commission puts pressure on ministers to toughen law on discrimination by churches''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/25/equlity-bill-churches-exemption


''Report: C of E's right to 26 seats in Lords should be repealed
Parliamentarians criticise unique speaking rights of bishops in upper house''

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/24/report-c-of-es-right-to-26-seats-in-lords-should-be-repealed#maincontent

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke
So you DON'T accept that there was enormous ambiguity over what Leave was going to mean?

Tell me. Is Norway in the EU?

[tyke1962]

The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.

Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .

https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/

Apologies for my late reply my laptop has suffered abuse and is being repaired,

I mean of course Tyke that the general public do not get a say in HOL appointments, where's the democracy? where do the people have their say. The very fact that they are  required to be 'lords' perpetuates a theme of privilege and they are appointed or nearer to the mark stacked by the government of the day. Look what is happening to Bercow, had the temerity to stand up for democracy and they verbal him for political retribution. The public cannot appt nor sack and some may take their position seriously but I think there is a goodly few allowance collecting.

''Equality bill: churches and campaigners demand clarity on religion's exemption

European commission puts pressure on ministers to toughen law on discrimination by churches''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/25/equlity-bill-churches-exemption


''Report: C of E's right to 26 seats in Lords should be repealed
Parliamentarians criticise unique speaking rights of bishops in upper house''

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/24/report-c-of-es-right-to-26-seats-in-lords-should-be-repealed#maincontent

As I've mentioned in an earlier thread to my new friend Glyn its not perfect but it does a very good job of scrutiny and holding governments to account .

They must be doing something right or else why would the Tories want to water down their affect or possibly get rid of them altogether .

It's not because some old chaps get to be a Lord and a bit of privilege that's for sure , they bloody love that shyte .

How could you open it up for elections Sydney ?

The public don't exactly turn out for GE's these days , besides that there's far more questionable characters who get elected as MP's as there are Lords so that doesn't work for me .

[tyke1962]

Tyke
So you DON'T accept that there was enormous ambiguity over what Leave was going to mean?

Tell me. Is Norway in the EU?

The referendum wasn't in Norway .

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's got nothing to do with the question I asked.

I'll try again. Is Norway in the EU? It's a simple enough question.

[wilts rover]

I have to give you credit tyke, you are doing a great job of defending the indefensible.

If you were to create a new form of government now, would you really go with one that has an unelected second chamber. Membership of which is confined to ancestors of people who owned the land in the middle ages and government appointed flunkies? Really?

In my view it should be a regionally elected second chamber, non-party independents, who are able to co-opt experts in any one particular field if they are discussing a specific piece of legislation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's got nothing to do with the question I asked.

I'll try again. Is Norway in the EU? It's a simple enough question.

In your own time Tyke. Doesn't take long to check, mind.

[tyke1962]

That's got nothing to do with the question I asked.

I'll try again. Is Norway in the EU? It's a simple enough question.

What on earth has Norway got to do with the UK leaving the EU ?

I'm fairly confident I didn't see on my ballot paper

Remain in the EU

Leave the EU    * Norway style arrangement *

I thought the ballot paper was as clear as it's possible to be personally .

When I've left a job I don't think my ex employer is expecting me to leave just a little bit and turn in two days a week rather than five because I've errr .... left .

If Remain had won I wouldn't have expected some special arrangement that appeased Leave .

It was a straight question as far as I was concerned and saw it personally , In or Out there was no compromise and neither would I have expected any from Remain in victory .

[tyke1962]

I have to give you credit tyke, you are doing a great job of defending the indefensible.

If you were to create a new form of government now, would you really go with one that has an unelected second chamber. Membership of which is confined to ancestors of people who owned the land in the middle ages and government appointed flunkies? Really?

In my view it should be a regionally elected second chamber, non-party independents, who are able to co-opt experts in any one particular field if they are discussing a specific piece of legislation.

Anytime a tory government wants rid of a monkey on it's back then said monkey is doing something right in my opinion .

Give the monkey a banana I say .

I don't always agree with their decisions , far from it .

Bercow drove me insane but I grudgingly admired the bloke to a certain extent , he was given that kind of power and so you have to respect the decisions he made whether I liked them or not .

Just because decisions are made that we don't like doesn't mean we have to pour petrol and light a match to them .

It's the same with the beeb , they seem to pyss everyone off on both sides of the political divide .

What does that tell us ?

It tells us they are doing a good job of independent journalism which is what they are there to do .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Why so twitchy? I just asked you a simple question.  I KNOW we didn't have different Leave options on the ballot paper. And that's kind of the point.

I assume you agree that Norway isn't in the EU?

So, if we now had an agreement with the EU like Norway has, we would have left the EU?

Agreed? Well of course you do, because you're very intelligent and only an idiot would disagree.

In fact, actually some of the most passionate Leavers were telling us we WOULD have a Norway type deal after we left. Farage and Hannan for example.

It is simply not credible to think that their campaigning didn't influence some waverers to vote for Leave.

And yet, here we are now, 4 years later, in a totally different place. Everyone from Farage to May to Johnson told us throughout 2019 that a Norway deal was absolutely NOT what the people voted for.

Here's a thing. How do reckon they KNOW that? What evidence do you think they have?

Could it be...here's a thought...could it be that folk like you who voted Leave, were actually voting to give the decision on what "Leave" meant to a small number of right wing politicians?

What an odd thing for a left-wing person to do. And even odder that that same person would then wade into a debate arguing with folk who point these things out to him.


And here's another thing.

If the ballot paper was so unambiguous, how come the same people who told us a Leave vote was a vote for a Norway option BEFORE the referendum, then told us that folk hadn't voted for a Norway deal AFTER the referendum?

I guess it obviously want unambiguous to everyone, eh?

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Tory Govt wants rid of the EU. What do you reckon that means?

[tyke1962]

Why so twitchy? I just asked you a simple question.  I KNOW we didn't have different Leave options on the ballot paper. And that's kind of the point.

I assume you agree that Norway isn't in the EU?

So, if we now had an agreement with the EU like Norway has, we would have left the EU?

Agreed? Well of course you do, because you're very intelligent and only an idiot would disagree.

In fact, actually some of the most passionate Leavers were telling us we WOULD have a Norway type deal after we left. Farage and Hannan for example.

It is simply not credible to think that their campaigning didn't influence some waverers to vote for Leave.

And yet, here we are now, 4 years later, in a totally different place. Everyone from Farage to May to Johnson told us throughout 2019 that a Norway deal was absolutely NOT what the people voted for.

Here's a thing. How do reckon they KNOW that? What evidence do you think they have?

Could it be...here's a thought...could it be that folk like you who voted Leave, were actually voting to give the decision on what "Leave" meant to a small number of right wing politicians?

What an odd thing for a left-wing person to do. And even odder that that same person would then wade into a debate chucking insults at folk who point these things out to him.

Billy

I voted as I saw it and what I've believed in since I started taking an interest in politics , it really is that simple with me .

I was a Leaver before before 90% of today's lot were out of nappies .

I'm not that guy who does the second guessing thing about the motives of Tory's or Farage , they didn't influence me .

I can only communicate to you as I personally see things whether that be life experience , publications I've read and I've read greatly on the EU from both sides of the divide and absolutely nothing has ever convinced me personally that membership and the way it's evolved from a 6 nation trading bloc is anything other than detrimental to the working class and it's a neoliberal club who throw us some crumbs around to take the heat off themselves .

There's nothing in that club that we as a great nation can't do better .

I don't subscribe to the view that the world's moved on because if that was the case Remain would have won comfortably and we wouldn't be having this debate .

Geographically it works for some , fair enough but clearly not in Wales , the midlands or the north .

It doesn't work because those areas have different things going on and as a consequence view things far more differently .

The reponse is to call them racist , thickos , inward looking and any other put me down that you can think of .

How do you think  that plays out ?

Do you think the Remainers would have had that thrown at them had they won ?

Ever since that result came in every dirty trick you can think of has been played by the Remainers to get this thing stopped or so watered down that we may as well have stayed in .

I've never known anything like it in my life .

That result had to honoured in my opinion as it was presented on the ballot paper , nothing more and nothing less or we may as well never vote again in our lives for what it would be worth going forward .

Norway this , Canada that wtf , leave the EU totally and we run from there .

That's what the ballot paper said , like it said in 1975 .