What has happened in this country

[Ldr]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

[IDM]

About flags - IMHO there is a big difference between using the flag design on mugs etc as souvenirs or a positive association, and abusing it such as burning, which has a much more symbolic negative meaning.

[Glyn_Wigley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8

[idler]

Idler, I was showing that if you wrap yourself in the flag for glory then you have to accept all the other occasions where the flag was used.

I don't actually see a lot of respect being shown to the flag when it's used on mugs, teatowels, underwear, shopping bags. I hope the buyers of these items dispose of them respectfully.

and this

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BELLA-BRITAIN-UNION-JACK-FLAG-DESIGN-MODERN-FLOOR-RUG-150x220cm-NEW/222575401169?hash=item33d28718d1:g:Vz4AAOSwEUVZYc7U

Sydney, I don't wrap myself in the Union Jack for glory. I regard as a symbol of the country that I love and was born in. I'm proud when it is hoisted high at the Olympics. It's reassuring when you see the flag abroad when used in the right way that you have something in common with others while far from home.
I disregard a lot of the tat that uses the symbol the same with the flag of St. George.
That's my opinion you are welcome to yours. I'm fed up of people having digs about what happened in the past and laying guilt on generations that had nothing to do with it.

[Not Now Kato]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

You're absolutely right that we should not feel guilty for the actions of our ancestors, there is no purpose to it.  However it is vitally important, in a progressive society, that we recognise not only the things we did well but also the things we did very badly indeed, some of which were shameful - otherwise how do we learn and progress without making the same mistakes again; and thus, as you say, taking responsibility for our own actions or the actions of others to which we approve.
 
So, whilst we shouldn't feel guilty we certainly should be ashamed of some of the things our ancestors did.
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-colonial-shame-slave-owners-given-huge-payouts-after-abolition-8508358.html?fbclid=IwAR235hSKbMCV57JeO7q_gtfYwp0rT_Mt0dC0gSNWabf6nJx0DghLBCm4udc
 

[SydneyRover]

I don't have a problem with any of the views expressed about the flag, I do object when people conflate views to promote their argument, this maybe what they think but is it what I said?

I am more in line with Kato's response unless you/I learn from mistakes you don't grow as a person or a country and have shown some different ways people see the flag.

We/I don't know how the person/s that attempted to burn the flag felt or their reasons, if they feel disenfranchised from a lifetime of racisim and abuse then I could understand their position just look at the petty crap that goes on here.

I am not going to get upset about it, I'm more concerned about people than symbolism.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

[selby]

Billy stop apologising for being white and British, if you feel the need do it for yourself, and stop imposing your thoughts on others about the way to live their lives, You have no right to, you don't even know the majority of people who Post on here, but jump to conclusions and like to play god.
  I have no doubt you are a decent lad, and would be better for knowing, but some times you come over as a bully and a knob.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Now you've finished that personal attack Selby, which part of the logic of my post did you object to?

[phil old leake]

If we are going to hate everyone that has done bad in their history What shall we do about all the African nations that throughout history have enslaved each other. Invaded other African nations for greed. Sold captives to white invaders and money makers for profit and power
History is history and should not be forgotten. The best way to educate people is to be truthful and not selective about what we want to criticise
Educate with the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts
There will be very few if any nations in the world that have not tried to expand by taking over neighbours
Maybe we should all hate Scandinavians who spread their wings and conquered or the Greeks and Romans the list goes on and on

[Donnywolf]

Let the Scandinavians off .... just ... as without them we wouldnt have such a great Forum name and Club Badge of course

[BillyStubbsTears]

No-one is talking about "hating" anyone.

It is simply about being aware of your history.

If you take all the benefits of what your forefathers did, while ignoring the responsibilities, you are a hypocrite. Simple logic.

I don't question that many countries and many people have done evil things. The issue is that we have a responsibility to face up to that, especially where the consequences are still raw today.

That is the only point I'm making. Selby is perfectly at liberty to go unhinged at that point and accuse me of hating white people and being a knob.

[Not Now Kato]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

I can't answer for Ldr, nor would I try; but for my part BST it is clear I cannot be responsible for the crimes of the past; nor can I avoid the benefit of the material wealth I and the country enjoy.
 
What I can do however is to feel ashamed of those crimes and do whatever I can not to be part of making the same, or similar, crimes again.  I have friends in Germany who feel exactly the same about the atrocities committed during WW2 - they are not responsible for them, but they do feel ashamed that they happened in the name of their country and are determines such will never happen again.  An attitude that would benefit the world if more people were to adopt it.
 
Did you or anyone else watch the excellent but dark Sitting in Limbo drama on BBC last night?  It was impossible to watch without understanding the abhorrent treatment the Windrush generation were subject to without feeling ashamed of how they were treated, and, particularly how Amber Rudd and Teresa May behaved 'in our name'!  How those two people, (I use that last word lightly), are still in politics and how they are revered by some people is beyond me - shameful beyond belief!

[Ldr]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

I can't answer for Ldr, nor would I try; but for my part BST it is clear I cannot be responsible for the crimes of the past; nor can I avoid the benefit of the material wealth I and the country enjoy.
 
What I can do however is to feel ashamed of those crimes and do whatever I can not to be part of making the same, or similar, crimes again.  I have friends in Germany who feel exactly the same about the atrocities committed during WW2 - they are not responsible for them, but they do feel ashamed that they happened in the name of their country and are determines such will never happen again.  An attitude that would benefit the world if more people were to adopt it.
 
Did you or anyone else watch the excellent but dark Sitting in Limbo drama on BBC last night?  It was impossible to watch without understanding the abhorrent treatment the Windrush generation were subject to without feeling ashamed of how they were treated, and, particularly how Amber Rudd and Teresa May behaved 'in our name'!  How those two people, (I use that last word lightly), are still in politics and how they are revered by some people is beyond me - shameful beyond belief!

Spot on NNK

[SydneyRover]

I have only been able to read about the scandalous windrush and find it difficult to believe that it could have ever happened in a modern society.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

I can't answer for Ldr, nor would I try; but for my part BST it is clear I cannot be responsible for the crimes of the past; nor can I avoid the benefit of the material wealth I and the country enjoy.
 
What I can do however is to feel ashamed of those crimes and do whatever I can not to be part of making the same, or similar, crimes again.  I have friends in Germany who feel exactly the same about the atrocities committed during WW2 - they are not responsible for them, but they do feel ashamed that they happened in the name of their country and are determines such will never happen again.  An attitude that would benefit the world if more people were to adopt it.
 
Did you or anyone else watch the excellent but dark Sitting in Limbo drama on BBC last night?  It was impossible to watch without understanding the abhorrent treatment the Windrush generation were subject to without feeling ashamed of how they were treated, and, particularly how Amber Rudd and Teresa May behaved 'in our name'!  How those two people, (I use that last word lightly), are still in politics and how they are revered by some people is beyond me - shameful beyond belief!

NNK.

That is an excellent post. You are right of course. We can't be held responsible for what our forefathers did. But equally, we can't simply shrug it off and say it is nothing to do with us. We DO have a responsibility to make some atonement for those crimes in how we act today. And as you say, the Windrush scandal shows how far we have to go on that, and how easy it is for politicians to play to the mob and do the precise opposite of what morally they should be doing.

For my part, I'd certainly like to see this era address the issue of how we have historically glorified the elite who profited from slavery. The pulling down of that statue in Bristol was symbolic in bringing the issue into our living rooms. Personally I'd like democracy to take over now. Let's have democratic votes all over the country on whether we tear down all these statues.

[idler]

Alternatively leave the statues up but have an explanation of how times have changed and they are no longer revered as they once were.
Would you pull down a statue of Caligula or Nero in Italy?
We can't change history but we can learn from it.
Most of my ancestors going back a hundred years or two were agricultural labourers so did not benefit from the slave trade.

[Hounslowrover]

Idler, if the economy improved, surely so would lives of ordinary people, including agricultural labourers. The slave trade would have had a big impact on growing the economy, there must be an indirect link for all of society.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler.

I do think there is a qualitative difference between how we should address the crimes of Nero and the crimes of slave traders.

In that the consequences of the latter are unquestionably still very much active in society today. Whereas you have a much harder time drawing a clear thread from Caligula to today's socio-economic problems.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler, if the economy improved, surely so would lives of ordinary people, including agricultural labourers. The slave trade would have had a big impact on growing the economy, there must be an indirect link for all of society.

Bang on.

Those of us who are not from the upper classes were not directly responsible for instigating the crimes of the slave trade[1].  They were planned and conducted by a different stratum of society.

But there's no question that we benefited materially from the money and the trade that the slavery system brought into the country.


[1] This is why I draw a distinction between the generic "responsibility" of our entire UK society for the slave trade, and the responsibility of the entire German people for the Holocaust. The former was about decisions taken by a small group of people without the support of a mass democratic system. In the case of the latter, the German people en masse had enabled Hitler, knowing precisely what kind of man he was.

The former crime was the outcome of a patrician state where only a tiny percentage had any input into national policy. The latter was enabled by a mass democracy. That means the German people have a much heavier burden of responsibility.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's difficult isn't it?  Different times and all these sort of things seem different now.  I guess there is a point that a statue shouldn't always stay in place and really there should be a point where we think about whether they should remain.

The thing with history is that the perception of history will change over time.  I wonder what our kids, grandkids etc will think of us burning fossil fuels, coal, use of oil etc?  They may well think the whole idea of it was bonkers, yet 50 years ago it was barely questioned in many cases.  Will social media be seen as a positive or negative and what will it fuel over the coming years (hate, civil war, mental health issues who knows?)  Very difficult to see these things at the time it is happening isn't it? 

The reality is that to some the reality of slave trade was accepted and yielded the development required at the time.  I would (referring to my previous point) say the same for the use of coal.  Many round here were miners including many of my family.  I as a younger person find the thought of us sending people (and in the past children) down mines pretty grim.  Yet historically, it was necessary to give us the development we have today.  We shouldn't forget that, but equally we shouldn't stop striving to have a future that pays much, much more attention to these things.

Indeed, I wonder how much many of us think about the design and production of the clothes that we wear and impact on those actually undertaking that work.  The jacket I have on was made in Pakistan, my phone a Chinese brand made in China, my shoes made in China, I still have my sports watch on, American but made in Taiwan...  We trust the companies we purchase these goods from are ethical and tell us the full truth, are they and should we just accept it?  What of the effect our cars, phones, planes, computers etc are having on the future?  Is that trade off acceptable and what will future generations make of that and us?

We also have this moral dilemma with wars.  The Iraq and Syria wars classic examples.  The human right travesty in those countries shouldn't ever be accepted, yet those wars are seen as imoral and illegal to many.  Is it perhaps the case that the wars were both right and wrong in different ways?  What would modern society have done and made of the acts of Germany in the 30s and 40s, would we have questioned military action much more?  Who knows.

[silent majority]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!

I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.

I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.

That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.

[selby]

The best thing some people could do is go to some of the countries the downtrodden come from and ask some of their rich and elite citizens in those countries if they will swop their life for your white comfortable lifestyle, and spread a bit of their wealth about among their fellow citizens, in some cases who are still in a state of slavery.
  I think we all know the answer would resemble something on the lines of sex and travel.

[scawsby steve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8

Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.

[Glyn_Wigley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8

Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.

You're just as free to quote a right-wing d**khead who's about as funny as severe toothache too.

But no, your reaction is to just to throw insults about. Typical that.

The only thing we can deduce from that is that you have no response to what he says. At all.

[scawsby steve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8

Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.

You're just as free to quote a right-wing d**khead who's about as funny as severe toothache too.

But no, your reaction is to just to throw insults about. Typical that.

The only thing we can deduce from that is that you have no response to what he says. At all.

Why should I respond to someone like him who's completely irrelevant to me?

The reason why modern day comedians are so f*cking rubbish is that all they can do is take the p*ss out of everything they disagree with, and they try to pass that off as humour.

[MachoMadness]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!

I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.

I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.

That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.

You might well have worked hard for what you have. But if you happened to be descended from those slaves who were brought over here all those years ago rather than the people who owned them, it's a safe bet that you wouldn't have the same standard of living even if you'd worked twice as hard. That's the problem.

It's an uncomfortable thing to face up to, but if the price for true equality is that a few white people have to feel a bit uncomfortable about their history, then that's a small price to pay.

[MachoMadness]

Why should I respond to someone like him who's completely irrelevant to me?

The reason why modern day comedians are so f*cking rubbish is that all they can do is take the p*ss out of everything they disagree with, and they try to pass that off as humour.

Modern comedians? Bill Hicks died in 1994!

[silent majority]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!

I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.

I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.

That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.

You might well have worked hard for what you have. But if you happened to be descended from those slaves who were brought over here all those years ago rather than the people who owned them, it's a safe bet that you wouldn't have the same standard of living even if you'd worked twice as hard. That's the problem.

It's an uncomfortable thing to face up to, but if the price for true equality is that a few white people have to feel a bit uncomfortable about their history, then that's a small price to pay.

But that wasn't the point BST was making, and I've never suggested that I don't feel uncomfortable about it. What I countered was that my comfortable living is derived from the crimes of our forefathers and that I should feel responsible, if not I should give up some of the material wealth that was bequeathed to me. Really?

[MachoMadness]

I didn't read it as that, SM. I read it as him putting an unfair proposition to you to illustrate the unfair proposition that millions of people have to deal with every day, just because of their skin.