Yes its from the Mail

[Ldr]

but its an interesting opinion piece rather than news.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8514095/amp/DAN-HODGES-liberal-Left-view-white-British-workers-enemy.html?__twitter_impression=true

[DonnyOsmond]

Labour are guilty of taking for granted Northern voters but I don't understand working class voters being against left wing policies, these are policies which are normally socially responsible compared to right wing policies which are more every man for themselves and in a time when there's hundreds of thousands being made redundant we need to look after each other. Working class people won't have savings to easily get through this if they've lost their job, they need something to help them which Sunak is bringing in some left wing policies at this desperate time. The only thing he may have a point on is the over the top levels of political correctness but that's not Labours fault, that's Gen Zers.

Papers like the Mail made Corbyn unelectable by throwing enough shit at the wall till it stuck. Lower corporation tax obviously appeals to the leaders of newspapers like the Mail so they will tell you to vote Conservative. If Starmer doesn't go for the same policies then they may find him more electable.

[selby]

  Donny, as Thatcher said left wing and labour policies are brilliant until you run out of someone else's money.

[wilts rover]

Thats right support right wing politics, where you are glad you make money for someone else

[DonnyOsmond]

  Donny, as Thatcher said left wing and labour policies are brilliant until you run out of someone else's money.

So should we go for more capitalistic approach? Wasn't there protests as Thatcher closed the mines but didn't care for the people with retraining them? I think extremes of either socialism or capitalism is dangerous, the only safe space is in the middle. Personally I'm pro-social democracy such as the Nordic model. A study was done in 2016 that 1/3 of the UK population is two missed pay packets from being homeless. We need to protect people if their circumstances suddenly change, you never know if it could be someone close to you.

[Not Now Kato]

  Donny, as Thatcher said left wing and labour policies are brilliant until you run out of someone else's money.

Well, your lot seem to be spending money like it's going out of style.  Wonder what will happen when THEY run out?

[DonnyOsmond]

  Donny, as Thatcher said left wing and labour policies are brilliant until you run out of someone else's money.

Well, your lot seem to be spending money like it's going out of style.  Wonder what will happen when THEY run out?

Leave a little note for the next government?

[drfchound]

  Donny, as Thatcher said left wing and labour policies are brilliant until you run out of someone else's money.

Well, your lot seem to be spending money like it's going out of style.  Wonder what will happen when THEY run out?

TBF Kato, it is a good job they are.
I bet even BST would agree with that.

[wilts rover]

Yes I do hound.

I am not sure they have spent it all on the right things, had the right priorities, made the best use of it or know how they are going to pay it back - but yes very much the right thing to do to abandon the past 40 years of Tory dogma and adopt a socialist policy to keep the country going.

Now whether selby agrees they should be spending vast amounts of other peoples' money...

[Not Now Kato]

  Donny, as Thatcher said left wing and labour policies are brilliant until you run out of someone else's money.

Well, your lot seem to be spending money like it's going out of style.  Wonder what will happen when THEY run out?

TBF Kato, it is a good job they are.
I bet even BST would agree with that.

Indeed, it is quite right that they should and I'm glad that they are.  My post was simply to show how absolutely silly seby's comment was.  Then again, selby's comments often speak for themselves in that vein. 

[scawsby steve]

Yes I do hound.

I am not sure they have spent it all on the right things, had the right priorities, made the best use of it or know how they are going to pay it back - but yes very much the right thing to do to abandon the past 40 years of Tory dogma and adopt a socialist policy to keep the country going.

Now whether selby agrees they should be spending vast amounts of other peoples' money...

I didn't realise you'd morphed into BST, Wilts.

[selby]

  They interviewed a young lady on furlough who was on £ 45,000 pounds a year salary who was claiming that she was  in severe financial difficulties after three weeks of the lock down and had developed depression because she was missing shopping and eating out.

[DonnyOsmond]

  They interviewed a young lady on furlough who was on £ 45,000 pounds a year salary who was claiming that she was  in severe financial difficulties after three weeks of the lock down and had developed depression because she was missing shopping and eating out.

OK...?

[drfchound]

You would have thought she might have saved a few bob for hard times wouldn't you.
Mind you, there are plenty of people who live beyond their means.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There IS a serious debate to be had on the difficulty for Labour of keeping its coalition together. Labour only wins if it attracts both older working class folk in the ex-Industrial heartlands, and younger, often highly qualified people in the university cities.

Lose either of those and Labour is doomed.

Both of those sides broadly agree on left-wing taxation and public spending. But Brexit has overwhelmed all that and given us a Culture War. And there are very big differences in cultural outlooks between those groups.

That's the thing that the Corbynistas never understood. To them it was all about the economics and spending. They wanted people's opinions on Brexit and what that said about their outlook on the world to be irrelevant. But as they found out in 2019, tack one way on that isdue and you lose one group, tack the other and you lose the other.

I think Starmer better understands that problem, but God knows what the answer is. And the Tories will certainly heap coals on the Culture War fire, be Aude it is in their interests. There are no right wing economic ideas that solve our current problems, so they want to divert attention away from the economics.

Back to that article. There IS a debate to be had, but a troublemaking Kitson like Hodges is not interested in that. He is part of the problem. Ostensibly a Labour supporter, what he actually is is someone who sits on the sidelines goading and trying to provoke arguments. He gives a couple of examples of idiots trolling on social media, and turns that into a "Liberal Left Hates Working Class" thesis.

And note that he does the classic Mail thing of not giving a single link to his evidence, so no-one can go and check for themselves. What Hodges is doing is deliberately prodding the Selbys if this world by deliberately making them feel victimised. Why he does it, other than to keep a roof over his head, is anybody's idea.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way, this is a much more intelligent article on how Culture Wars have been whipped up so dangerously that they are undermining western democracy.

https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/jul/12/anne-applebaum-how-my-old-friends-paved-the-way-for-trump-and-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet&__twitter_impression=true

And note how many of the claims and assertions are backed up by links to the source material. So the reader can check the veracity for themselves.

Have a think how rarely you ever see links in Mail stories. Because they don't want you going and digging into the stories for yourself. They want you only to read their interpretation.

That's why it's just partisan stupidity to claim that the Guardian is some sort of left wing equivalent to the propaganda rag that the Mail is.

[SydneyRover]

Reading the article reminds me of a phrase I think of often but it's origins I don't know, maybe someone here knows?

''A person that will steal for you will steal from you''

Which means to me apart from the obvious, if you adopt a false god or worship at the feet of populism you will be consumed by it.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

You would have thought she might have saved a few bob for hard times wouldn't you.
Mind you, there are plenty of people who live beyond their means.

Being furloughed on a £45k salary is a fairly large cut in salary and her outgoings may well have been right on the limit.  Her earnings may have gone from something like £2.6k to £1.9k (depends on loads of things), that's a hefty cut.  When you have a salary of that value your means would be higher, you wouldn't expect to be losing £700 a month just like that.

[wilts rover]

Yes I do hound.

I am not sure they have spent it all on the right things, had the right priorities, made the best use of it or know how they are going to pay it back - but yes very much the right thing to do to abandon the past 40 years of Tory dogma and adopt a socialist policy to keep the country going.

Now whether selby agrees they should be spending vast amounts of other peoples' money...

I didn't realise you'd morphed into BST, Wilts.

I only did it to see if anyone would notice!

[wilts rover]

I think Starmer better understands that problem, but God knows what the answer is. And the Tories will certainly heap coals on the Culture War fire, be Aude it is in their interests. There are no right wing economic ideas that solve our current problems, so they want to divert attention away from the economics.

The answer is for Starmer to put forward his vision for what he wants his Labour Party to be. At the moment he is being defined by what he is not (Corbyn or Johnson) and thus leaving a vacuum for what people think he & his Labour Party is.

That won't stop the Daily Heil attacking him though. They attack him because he is the leader of the Labour Party. Its how they work. Make people angry so they don't think properly and keep feeding them enemies to hate.

[scawsby steve]

There IS a serious debate to be had on the difficulty for Labour of keeping its coalition together. Labour only wins if it attracts both older working class folk in the ex-Industrial heartlands, and younger, often highly qualified people in the university cities.

Lose either of those and Labour is doomed.

Both of those sides broadly agree on left-wing taxation and public spending. But Brexit has overwhelmed all that and given us a Culture War. And there are very big differences in cultural outlooks between those groups.

That's the thing that the Corbynistas never understood. To them it was all about the economics and spending. They wanted people's opinions on Brexit and what that said about their outlook on the world to be irrelevant. But as they found out in 2019, tack one way on that isdue and you lose one group, tack the other and you lose the other.

I think Starmer better understands that problem, but God knows what the answer is. And the Tories will certainly heap coals on the Culture War fire, be Aude it is in their interests. There are no right wing economic ideas that solve our current problems, so they want to divert attention away from the economics.

Back to that article. There IS a debate to be had, but a troublemaking Kitson like Hodges is not interested in that. He is part of the problem. Ostensibly a Labour supporter, what he actually is is someone who sits on the sidelines goading and trying to provoke arguments. He gives a couple of examples of idiots trolling on social media, and turns that into a "Liberal Left Hates Working Class" thesis.

And note that he does the classic Mail thing of not giving a single link to his evidence, so no-one can go and check for themselves. What Hodges is doing is deliberately prodding the Selbys if this world by deliberately making them feel victimised. Why he does it, other than to keep a roof over his head, is anybody's idea.

I agree with a lot of that. I don't like labels being put upon people. I'm as left wing as anyone on the economy, and would like to see lots of things nationalised; but I'm more to the right on cultural things such as law and order.

I also agree with you about the Culture War that Brexit has caused. I've said on here in the past that the man to blame for all of that is David Cameron, who gave us all a referendum that no-one wanted or was interested in.