England/Euros Thread

[Chris the Rover]

Looks like it’s Goodnight Vienna.

[PDX_Rover]

Not so fast…

[DRCraig]

Ooh. Some decisions went against Wales even though they were well beaten. Italy not impressive at all in the later game.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just watching Netherlands. I think I may finally have found a side worse from corners than us.

[DearneValleyRover]

Well looking at the first half it either proves we are better than some are making out or the Dutch are sh*te

[DonnyNoel]

Well looking at the first half it either proves we are better than some are making out or the Dutch are sh*te

I think thats a good point but also related to a wider discussion (and possible tangent) that international football is no longer the pinnacle of the game so when you benchmark some of these teams against the top club sides who can buy the best in every position then it's going to seem disappointing. Even looking at the England starting XI from the last game: only 5 started last season in the Champions League and 4 weren't involved in European competition at all. I'd also say that some teams at this tournament would struggle in the PL so in terms of how good/bad we are it's tricky to say. You can only really benchmark within the tournament and as such I'd say the semis are a realistic target, even allowing for the favourable draw. Even allowing for last nights games I only really fear France and Italy although Portugal having Ronaldo makes them a worrying opponent for me also.

[Chris Black come back]

Could get 5/1 pre-match and 9/2 even at half time, on Czech to win. Looked way too generous especially given how average the Dutch have looked at times.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Could get 5/1 pre-match and 9/2 even at half time, on Czech to win. Looked way too generous especially given how average the Dutch have looked at times.

Said to a Dutch mate of mine last week that they'd be favourites for the competition with van Basten or van Nistelrooy up front. As it is, they are very poor up front.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like I was saying last week. England will never have a better chance of making a Euro final.
A poor Germany in R2
Sweden in QF
Czechia or Denmark in the semi.

[selby]

You will have a new team to watch at the Keepmoat Billy next season, a lot more exciting.

[DonnyNoel]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

Thats true, whilst the quality of football is improving all the time I almost feel a little sorry for the kids of today who know all the good players and "wonderkids" due to the increased exposure of the game. Watching most of Euro 88 then all of Italia 90 was mind blowing as  7/9 year old. The fact there was barely any football on TV and we weren't allowed in European club football at the time meant tournament football was a truly eye opening experience.

Amazingly Brighton and Leeds had more players in the Spain squad than Real Madrid.

[River Don]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

It also means there is less variation in footballing styles, national teams don't display national characteristics so much anymore and that's a shame.

[Chris Black come back]

Like I was saying last week. England will never have a better chance of making a Euro final.
A poor Germany in R2
Sweden in QF
Czechia or Denmark in the semi.

If we made it to the final, we would have played every single game at home, apart from the QF in Rome, against winner of Ukraine v Sweden.

[belton rover]

The gap between the elite European teams and the  smaller footballing nations is certainly becoming smaller. It’s not just the lesser teams getting better, either.

[tyke1962]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

What a great point Billy , as a kid watching my first world cup in 1970 those Brazilians were from another planet .

What a great kit for a start and those early adidas boots .

I'd never seen players like them and that's because I hadn't as probably all of them played in Brazil .

[River Don]

That exotic 1970 Brazil kit was supplied by Umbro of Manchester.

Then again almost every national football kit was supplied by Umbro at the time.

[RoversAlias]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

I guess I view football in a different way to this. I'd rather know as much as I can about a tournament that I'm paying attention to, and am much more invested in a game like Netherlands v Czech (as an example) if I know things about the players going in, even if I don't watch them a lot.

Helps when England play other sides too. I had good knowledge of several Croatia players beyond the stars like Modric and Perisic, and it made me more confident we could beat them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RA.
It's all about whether football appeals to your heart or your head.

Bottom line for me is that I want football to transport me to another level. With the Rovers, I'm invested and it will always be an emotional experience. When I'm watching Denmark against France, I've no skin in the game. And if I know all the players and their attributes and failings, honestly, where's the interest?

30-40 years ago, that match would have been a fascinating opportunity to see what all the fuss was about Platini, Laudrup, Tigana or Elkaer.

Now we see them every week. And it dulls the senses.

Many years ago, an excellent journalist at the Melody Maker saw the way the wind was blowing with music. The visceral excitement of getting in the bus and going to the record shop and buying THAT album and going back home in the bus with the mounting excitement of whether it would be as good as you hoped...that was going. Because the new world was everything you wanted at the touch of a button.

He called it The Excess of Access and he reckon it would leave us easily bored, less invested and less excited. That's precisely how I feel about top level football these days.

[NickDRFC]

I didn’t have a clue who Maehle & Damsgaard were at the start of the tournament and they’ve been incredible. There are still plenty of players out there who are less well known and can surprise you

I’m more clued up on the French, German etc players given so many of them play in the PL or CL but it’s also still possible to enjoy a game between 2 nations who you do know the ins and outs of - would Portugal-Germany have been more interesting if I didn’t know any of the players? Not for me.

I think this tournament so far has been brilliant and I’ve enjoyed most of the games. The first tournament I really remember is Euro 96 so with that being 25 years ago I can’t quite compare to 30-40 years, but the memory does have a tendency to exaggerate just how good the good old days were!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nick.
I'm not saying the players or the matches were better then. But the anticipation was, when you'd heard of Zico or Boniek or Butragueño but hardly ever seen them play. Now most of most squads are on our TVs every week and we are at saturation in coverage of the very best.

[RoversAlias]

RA.
It's all about whether football appeals to your heart or your head.

Bottom line for me is that I want football to transport me to another level. With the Rovers, I'm invested and it will always be an emotional experience. When I'm watching Denmark against France, I've no skin in the game. And if I know all the players and their attributes and failings, honestly, where's the interest?

30-40 years ago, that match would have been a fascinating opportunity to see what all the fuss was about Platini, Laudrup, Tigana or Elkaer.

Now we see them every week. And it dulls the senses.

Many years ago, an excellent journalist at the Melody Maker saw the way the wind was blowing with music. The visceral excitement of getting in the bus and going to the record shop and buying THAT album and going back home in the bus with the mounting excitement of whether it would be as good as you hoped...that was going. Because the new world was everything you wanted at the touch of a button.

He called it The Excess of Access and he reckon it would leave us easily bored, less invested and less excited. That's precisely how I feel about top level football these days.

Take your point BST, but for me it's enjoyable to combine the emotional side of football interest with the statistical/analytical etc. side.

I'm very emotionally invested in the game, especially Rovers, and love the stories that football and sport throws up and creates.

But in a game likes tonight's, my interest is piqued because I am keen to see for instance the midfield battle between Portugal's Sanches and Palhinha, and Belgium's Witsel, Tielemans and De Bruyne. Because I know what these players are like, what they're about and how they play together for their national team. If I knew nothing about the 5 of them I wouldn't be nearly as keen to see it unfold. It would probably just boil down to "will Ronaldo or Lukaku score more", which isn't nearly as enticing.

When it comes to music I think what you say is true though. I still buy vinyl records partially because of that new music experience. But football, I have found several ways to enjoy it.

[River Don]

The excess of access.

That chimes with me. I used to be far absorbed with football and music than I am now. I thought, perhaps it's an age thing. Perhaps it is but I do think this idea is part of it.

I stopped collecting records. I don't need to spend all that money. I don't need to own something to listen to it when I want anymore. It's too much of a good thing.

[drfchound]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

I guess I view football in a different way to this. I'd rather know as much as I can about a tournament that I'm paying attention to, and am much more invested in a game like Netherlands v Czech (as an example) if I know things about the players going in, even if I don't watch them a lot.

Helps when England play other sides too. I had good knowledge of several Croatia players beyond the stars like Modric and Perisic, and it made me more confident we could beat them.

It’s the internet and worldwide tv coverage that has taken away all the novelty and expectation away.
When I was a boy and even as a young man, as others have said, we knew naff all about most of the foreign players.
These days loads of fans are experts about all things football, systems managers, even goalkeeping coaches. In fact most people seem to know everything about everything.

[DonnyNoel]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

I guess I view football in a different way to this. I'd rather know as much as I can about a tournament that I'm paying attention to, and am much more invested in a game like Netherlands v Czech (as an example) if I know things about the players going in, even if I don't watch them a lot.

Helps when England play other sides too. I had good knowledge of several Croatia players beyond the stars like Modric and Perisic, and it made me more confident we could beat them.

It’s the internet and worldwide tv coverage that has taken away all the novelty and expectation away.
When I was a boy and even as a young man, as others have said, we knew naff all about most of the foreign players.
These days loads of fans are experts about all things football, systems managers, even goalkeeping coaches. In fact most people seem to know everything about everything.

Going off on yet another tangent it's possibly why the FA Cup Final day isn't as big as it used to be. Football on TV is a given these days. Back then it was a pleasure and a novelty.

(Do teams even release cup final records these days?!)

[Janso]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

I guess I view football in a different way to this. I'd rather know as much as I can about a tournament that I'm paying attention to, and am much more invested in a game like Netherlands v Czech (as an example) if I know things about the players going in, even if I don't watch them a lot.

Helps when England play other sides too. I had good knowledge of several Croatia players beyond the stars like Modric and Perisic, and it made me more confident we could beat them.

It’s the internet and worldwide tv coverage that has taken away all the novelty and expectation away.
When I was a boy and even as a young man, as others have said, we knew naff all about most of the foreign players.
These days loads of fans are experts about all things football, systems managers, even goalkeeping coaches. In fact most people seem to know everything about everything.

Going off on yet another tangent it's possibly why the FA Cup Final day isn't as big as it used to be. Football on TV is a given these days. Back then it was a pleasure and a novelty.

(Do teams even release cup final records these days?!)

Thank Christ I was born too late to have had to suffer FA Cup final records.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The excess of access.

That chimes with me. I used to be far absorbed with football and music than I am now. I thought, perhaps it's an age thing. Perhaps it is but I do think this idea is part of it.

I stopped collecting records. I don't need to spend all that money. I don't need to own something to listen to it when I want anymore. It's too much of a good thing.

Simon Reynolds RD. Was an excellent writer back in the day. I used to read him in the MM in the late 80s. Looks like he's still active. Here's a example of his writing from a few years back. Looks like he's still living off that phrase.

http://reynoldsretro.blogspot.com/2013/01/800x600-normal-0-false-false-false-en_6172.html?m=1

[River Don]

That's part of the loss of the lustre of football DN.

Watching big tournaments used to be like exploring in the jungle. You had little prior knowledge. You'd heard rumours about the amazing things you might see. When you saw them with your own eyes, it was the thrill off the new. Amazing new experiences. Arie Hahn walloping the ball in from 90 yards. Nelinho bending one in from the touchline. Socrates, Milla, Rossi, Kempes, Cruyff.

Now it seems like every f**king side is full of Fulham, Watford and Brighton players. Murdoch stuffs the world's footballers down our throats every week. Nothing is new anymore.

I guess I view football in a different way to this. I'd rather know as much as I can about a tournament that I'm paying attention to, and am much more invested in a game like Netherlands v Czech (as an example) if I know things about the players going in, even if I don't watch them a lot.

Helps when England play other sides too. I had good knowledge of several Croatia players beyond the stars like Modric and Perisic, and it made me more confident we could beat them.

It’s the internet and worldwide tv coverage that has taken away all the novelty and expectation away.
When I was a boy and even as a young man, as others have said, we knew naff all about most of the foreign players.
These days loads of fans are experts about all things football, systems managers, even goalkeeping coaches. In fact most people seem to know everything about everything.

Going off on yet another tangent it's possibly why the FA Cup Final day isn't as big as it used to be. Football on TV is a given these days. Back then it was a pleasure and a novelty.

(Do teams even release cup final records these days?!)

Brian Clough said people don't want Yorkshire pudding and roast beef every day, when talking about the growing exposure of football on TV.

For quite a while he was wrong but I think now people are begining to have their fill of Sunday dinners.

But they only seem to be planning for yet more televised football.

[BillyStubbsTears]

An indication of how skewed the draw is. If Portugal had been able to get to the final, they'd have had to play (FIFA world rankings in brackets:

France (2)
Hungary (in Budapest) (37)
Germany (12) (in Munich)
Belgium (1)
Italy (7)
probably France (2) or Spain (6)
Average ranking 10-11 (5-6 if you discount the weakest group opponent). No home games and two in the opposition country.

England can do it by playing
Croatia (in London) (14)
Scotland (in London) (44)
Czechia (in London) (40)
Germany (in London) (12)
Sweden (18) or Ukraine (24)
Denmark (10) or Czechia (40) (in London)
Average ranking 23-29 (19-23 if you discount the weakest group opponent). 6 games at home an none on opponent's turf.

Portugal's must have been the hardest route ever to a major final and I doubt there have been many easier than England's. It's rare for a side to be able to reach a major final without facing a single top 10 side, which England could do if Czechia beat Denmark. Although bizarrely, both finalists did in the 2002 World Cup

Germany played:
Ireland (15)
Cameroon (17)
Saudi Arabia (34)
Paraguay (18)
USA (13)
South Korea (40)
Average ranking 23.

Brazil played:
Turkey (22)
China (50)
Costa Rica (29)
Belgium (13)
England (12)
Turkey (22)
Average ranking 30.

The only other examples that come to mind since the rankings came in in the early 90s are Portugal in Euro 2016, Argentina in WC2014 and possibly Italy in Euro 2000 (in a smaller tournament). So maybe 4-5 out of the last 26 or so finalists.


By the way, I only saw the second half tonight but that really lit the fire for me. An excellent game from two very impressive sides going at it hammer and tongs.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bit more on the skewed draw.

The very easiest route that any side in the top half of the draw can now have to get to the final is France, if they play:
Switzerland (13)
Croatia (14)
Italy (7)

The very easiest route any side in the bottom half could have is Denmark if they play:
Wales (17)
Czechia (40)
Ukraine (24)

Hardest top half run is Croatia/Switzerland
France (2)
Spain (6)
Belgium (1)

Hardest bottom half run is Czechia
Netherlands (16)
Denmark (10)
England (4)