England/Euros Thread

[Avsuptem]

It has been a pleasure reading the intelligent posts on this thread. I wish all were as well composed and erudite.

[belton rover]

Luck plays a huge part in these competitions, and that doesn’t necessarily mean drawing lower ranked teams.
Portugal made it to round 2 by being one ofthe best of the worst - in days gone by they they wouldn’t have had the opportunity to even play in the knockout stages. I think in their case, it shows the draw system working at its best - albeit with a bit of luck. Then again, you could say Belgium were unlucky to be up against a third place team like Portugal.
Luck of the draw. Sometime luck aligns with expectation. Often it doesn’t.
If England do go on to win this thing, it will be the most incredible achievement by my national team in my lifetime (51 years of hurt). It will be a shame if that is watered down by cries of ‘yeah, but look who we played’.

[Filo]

Luck plays a huge part in these competitions, and that doesn’t necessarily mean drawing lower ranked teams.
Portugal made it to round 2 by being one ofthe best of the worst - in days gone by they they wouldn’t have had the opportunity to even play in the knockout stages. I think in their case, it shows the draw system working at its best - albeit with a bit of luck. Then again, you could say Belgium were unlucky to be up against a third place team like Portugal.
Luck of the draw. Sometime luck aligns with expectation. Often it doesn’t.
If England do go on to win this thing, it will be the most incredible achievement by my national team in my lifetime (51 years of hurt). It will be a shame if that is watered down by cries of ‘yeah, but look who we played’.

The luckiest team ever in the Euros must be the team that won it without even qualifying for the Tournament

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'd forgotten about them Filo!

For the record (and I really don't want this thread to get embroiled in accusations of people's motives so I'll say no more than this) I for one am certainly not trying to pre-emptively belittle whatever England might achieve in this tournament. No-one says Brazil weren't worthy winners in WC2002. I'll be on the edge of my seat as much as anyone else tomorrow afternoon. I simply find the vagaries of the luck of the draw fascinating and thought I'd share it. it is simply a fact that this is a bizarrely skewed draw.

I hope folk take facts at face value and not look for agendas that don't exist.

[pib]

I understand the points about too much football on TV spoiling the mystique a bit, but to be honest if you don't subscribe to Sky/BT you're probably avoiding the vast majority of the over-saturation.

I know there's still MOTD/Football Focus and programmes like that, but they've been running for years anyway. Yes you can pick bits up on social media etc. but most of that tends to be gossip/manufactured debate fluff anyway IMO.

I don't watch anywhere near as much football on TV as I used to, and although I do agree the mystique around foreign players at international tournaments isn't the same as it used to be, I still find it interesting to tune into the different games and find out about teams/players I'm less familiar with. For example, some of the Italian players playing in Serie A - a league I don't really follow - have been great to watch. Same with players like Dumfries (Netherlands) of PSV, and Schick (Czech Rep.) of Bayer Leverkusen. Plus, I don't really tune in to watch much of Brighton/Watford/Fulham etc. anyway.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pib.
My point was not so much on saturation coverage. As you rightly guessed, I avoid most of that but I do watch occasional MoTDs. My point was that the SKY money has so bloated the English game that the there's not thrill of the new anymore. We KNOW so many of the players already because the obscene money in the English game has brought them to England. Last night, 8 of the Belgian starting XI and 7 of the subs currently play or previously have played in England. In previous eras, there'd have been a frisson of excitement about getting a rare chance to see what Anderlecht star Kevin deBruyne was like and whether he lived up to what we'd heard. Now we can see him every week and the excitement of tournaments is inevitably diluted.

[DMnumber4]

None of us knew much about the Senegal side of the early 2000's until they beat France in Seoul at the 2002 World Cup.

Papa Bouba Diop's goal secured the win and, with it, a move to England - along with many of his compatriots: Henri Camara, Salif Diao, Amdy Faye, Khalilou Fadiga, Aliou Cissé.

Three more, of course, (in)famously / incredibly ended up at the Keepmoat less than a decade later: El Hadji Diouf, Habib Beye Lamine Diatta.

[pib]

Pib.
My point was not so much on saturation coverage. As you rightly guessed, I avoid most of that but I do watch occasional MoTDs. My point was that the SKY money has so bloated the English game that the there's not thrill of the new anymore. We KNOW so many of the players already because the obscene money in the English game has brought them to England. Last night, 8 of the Belgian starting XI and 7 of the subs currently play or previously have played in England. In previous eras, there'd have been a frisson of excitement about getting a rare chance to see what Anderlecht star Kevin deBruyne was like and whether he lived up to what we'd heard. Now we can see him every week and the excitement of tournaments is inevitably diluted.

Can't disagree there.

There's still something special about the international tournaments for me though. If they were on year-in-year-out I'd definitely lose interest more easily, but I think the rarity and anticipation of them still makes them exciting events.

I have to say it's been slightly diluted this time round for me being hosted all across the continent though. I like it when there are one/two host countries and that place turns into a festival of football for a month.

And perhaps unlike a lot of people, I like the group stages the best, when some of the more obscure teams/players are participating. Especially in a World Cup when there's usually a team there that haven't made it to the finals in a generation or more, like Peru last time.

[RoversAlias]

BST - It is interesting to see the differences in path to the final by world ranking but my two counter points to it all would be

1. As Belton touched on, England have the path that they do by virtue of winning their group whilst Portugal came 3rd, likewise they got their "easier" group based on their ranking in the first place. However...

2. How much do the World Rankings actually matter? Belgium have been #1 for a long time now but have won nothing in their history, nor played any major finals in the time the rankings cover. Germany are ranked #12 but who would seriously rate them outside of the world's top ten?

If England win the tournament, and I'm not confident they will, then they will have done something no other side at the Euros will have done this year - avoid defeat, and get the better of all they face. That's all that matters ultimately.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RA

I agree with your points. Id just add to 1) that Belgium, France and Italy also won their groups and all face a much harder route to the final than the sides who finished second in their groups. Funny old game.

As for 2) I wholeheartedly agree that the FIFA metrics are flawed, generally I think in overestimating the real quality of non-European/South American sides. I wouldn't necessarily trust them to say side A in 4th place is unquestionably better than side B in 6th. But in general, there's not a lot of argument that a side in the top 5 is objectively better than one in 20th or 40th position [1]. So I used it as a broadbrush metric to put some quantification on the amount of skew there is between the two halves of the draw.

[1] Beauty of football of course, unlike, say, Rugby Union, is that there is always a decent chance that in a given match, the side ranked 40th can beat the side ranked 5th. That's one of the reasons that it is the best sport in the world.

[Jonathan]

Croatia playing really well in the game on at the moment. They’re such a good side and great to watch. Obviously they’re ageing and past it when they play against England, but against other teams they’re a top team and play some great stuff.

[drfchound]

Croatia playing really well in the game on at the moment. They’re such a good side and great to watch. Obviously they’re ageing and past it when they play against England, but against other teams they’re a top team and play some great stuff.

Ha, surely that hasn’t been suggested by anyone has it Jonathan.

[MachoMadness]

Very fortunate with the goal though, must be said. Unreal that a keeper at the top level can make a mistake like that.

[drfchound]

Very fortunate with the goal though, must be said. Unreal that a keeper at the top level can make a mistake like that.

Was it Paul Robinson who did that when in the England goal.

[MachoMadness]

It was. He was never the same player after that either.

[NickDRFC]

Croatia playing really well in the game on at the moment. They’re such a good side and great to watch. Obviously they’re ageing and past it when they play against England, but against other teams they’re a top team and play some great stuff.

Shame they can’t defend.

[NickDRFC]

Croatia playing really well in the game on at the moment. They’re such a good side and great to watch. Obviously they’re ageing and past it when they play against England, but against other teams they’re a top team and play some great stuff.

Shame they can’t defend.

And good job Spain can’t!

Another fantastic game, what a tournament this has been!

[belton rover]

I don’t remember enjoying as many ‘neutral’ games before. Loving it!

[Chris the Rover]

If Rovers games are half as exciting as this next season I will be well chuffed. What a cracker.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fair play to Croatia. They looked a shambles by that third Spanish goal, but that was some comeback.

[belton rover]

Switzerland were fantastic in that first half. France quite woeful.

[drfchound]

Big couple of minutes just now.
Missed pen followed immediately by the equaliser.
France must be favourite to win now.

[Janso]

Switzerland have completely shat the bed.

[belton rover]

WTF has just happened?

[drfchound]

……and then France score another one.

[MachoMadness]

Rodriguez looked like a deer in the headlights before taking that penalty. Heads have completely gone now, no way back for them, you can just tell.

[mushRTID]

Unbelievable response from France

[drfchound]

Game on again. 3-2. Great header.

[drfchound]

3-3. Great finish.

[MachoMadness]

Always knew the Swiss still had a chance!