Biden, Afghanistan and the dangerous stupidity of populism

[hstripes]

Biden promised to take US troops out of Afghanistan in the Presidential Election as it was popular with the electorate and a vote winner. He's carried this out early in his Presidency to make a political point i.e. the Republicans talked about doing this for 4 years but didn't follow through - hey look at me pulling the troops out within 8 months of coming to office. Clearly no serious thought given to the consequences of this policy or of carrying it out at this point in time. This decision is a clear and obvious example of populism.

The consequences are wide, far reaching, damaging and worrying and most were easy to predict: -

1) The economic and social gains made for Afghans lost as the Taliban take over
2) The almost certain murder of many of those who worked for the US backed regime - soldiers, interpreters, politicians, businessmen etc etc
3) The Taliban reintroducing harsh restrictions on the livelihoods of the population from religious freedoms to education for girls and many more areas besides
4) The reintroduction of highly lucrative poppy growth on Afghan farms. Increasing the supply and reducing the price of heroin in the West and all the problems that creates in terms of lives lost, crime etc
5) A safe haven reintroduced for Jihadi terrorists increasing the likelihood of terrorist offences throughout the world and especially the West
6) Related to 5 - the emboldening of home grown Islamic terrorists in Western societies
7) The damage to American reputation and the worldwide consequences of this on the causes of democracy and liberty
8) The emboldening of despotic regimes (big and small) throughout the world to behave heinously in the knowledge that the US is unlikely to intervene

It is the most moronic and devastatingly damaging decision taken by a US President in decades. All in the cause of winning votes.

What makes it worse is Biden's response to the crisis and failure to take ownership of this catastrophe: -

- Blaming the previous President - he's had 8 months to change direction, come to his senses and do something different
- Blaming the Afghan troops for not fighting and accusing them of cowardice. The same people now in mortal danger thanks to his decision.
- Not consulting promptly with allies who have supported the US over 20 years in Afghanistan including loss of military and civilian lives.

The man is a complete and utter disgrace from every which way this is viewed from. He has blood on his hands and he has put the safety and lives of both US and all Western citizens (including me and you if you're still reading this rant!) at severe risk.

He has caused more damage by one moronic decision than his much derided predecessor did in 4 years of tweeting from his bathtub.

[Filo]

Can’t argue with any of that

[sha66y]

Biden promised to take US troops out of Afghanistan in the Presidential Election as it was popular with the electorate and a vote winner. He's carried this out early in his Presidency to make a political point i.e. the Republicans talked about doing this for 4 years but didn't follow through - hey look at me pulling the troops out within 8 months of coming to office. Clearly no serious thought given to the consequences of this policy or of carrying it out at this point in time. This decision is a clear and obvious example of populism.

The consequences are wide, far reaching, damaging and worrying and most were easy to predict: -

1) The economic and social gains made for Afghans lost as the Taliban take over
2) The almost certain murder of many of those who worked for the US backed regime - soldiers, interpreters, politicians, businessmen etc etc
3) The Taliban reintroducing harsh restrictions on the livelihoods of the population from religious freedoms to education for girls and many more areas besides
4) The reintroduction of highly lucrative poppy growth on Afghan farms. Increasing the supply and reducing the price of heroin in the West and all the problems that creates in terms of lives lost, crime etc
5) A safe haven reintroduced for Jihadi terrorists increasing the likelihood of terrorist offences throughout the world and especially the West
6) Related to 5 - the emboldening of home grown Islamic terrorists in Western societies
7) The damage to American reputation and the worldwide consequences of this on the causes of democracy and liberty
8) The emboldening of despotic regimes (big and small) throughout the world to behave heinously in the knowledge that the US is unlikely to intervene

It is the most moronic and devastatingly damaging decision taken by a US President in decades. All in the cause of winning votes.

What makes it worse is Biden's response to the crisis and failure to take ownership of this catastrophe: -

- Blaming the previous President - he's had 8 months to change direction, come to his senses and do something different
- Blaming the Afghan troops for not fighting and accusing them of cowardice. The same people now in mortal danger thanks to his decision.
- Not consulting promptly with allies who have supported the US over 20 years in Afghanistan including loss of military and civilian lives.

The man is a complete and utter disgrace from every which way this is viewed from. He has blood on his hands and he has put the safety and lives of both US and all Western citizens (including me and you if you're still reading this rant!) at severe risk.

He has caused more damage by one moronic decision than his much derided predecessor did in 4 years of tweeting from his bathtub.

Well done for un-peeling the first onion layer…..
You would think that all this orchestration has no direction,

everything you wrote can be found on one form of media or another, which means none of it is any less misdirectional than the real story…

Drugs and arms are more than likely were the power brokers wash their money, and the word terrorism is embedded in our psyche , which brokers more financial deals to keep the world safe….. from ourselves no doubt….

[Sprotyrover]

Hmm just been watching Al Jazeera , we have 6 Typhoon fighters deployed at Constanta Romania just intercepted a Mig 24 in Romanian Air Space, they been deployed as Putin has amassed 80 Thousand troops on the Border with Ukraine. Putin has had the green light from Bidens Coffee Aunty Politics and is flexing his muscles.
Since when has Romania and Ukraine been in our Back yard?. Germany,Italy,France Spain step fort please!

[SydneyRover]

''Welcome to the website of the German Embassy London and the Consulate General Edinburgh!''

https://uk.diplo.de/uk-en

Let me know how you go I have the other addresses ready for you sprot

[Sandy Lane]

I’m going to stick with the current US president who *didn’t* invite the Taliban to the White House.  Trump released 5,000 Taliban prisoners and removed sanctions.  He signed a peace agreement with them and gave them a date that the US would be out, without including the Afghan president in the discussions.  The Taliban has had nine months to pay off the Afghan army (who hadn’t been paid for months) undermine the government and plan this takeover.  The army were ready to lay down their arms when the Taliban came in.

The US has been there through four presidents and not one wanted to admit it was a never ending war or had the will or courage to actually leave.  Over 20 years we have had 2,500 troops killed and Congress just kept approving more and more money.  For what, an Afghan army that fell so easily due to corruption in the Afghan government and our perpetual misunderstanding of their culture and situation?  Our mission was to stop terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base to attack the US after 9/11, not to set up democracy.  We were wrong from the get go to go there. But we should now keep our word and get out along with the Afghans who helped our military while we were there.

Yes, this has been a shit show exit and I’m not sure why but hope we find out.  This second attempt to safely remove Americans and Afghans is going better and hope we can stay with it until all who want and qualify to leave do so safely.  So I think at this point perspective is important. We have taken out 20,000+ people so far, of which only 2,500 are Americans.  Biden is trying to exit without conflict.  It may not be possible, but it would never have been clean or easy.  I just hope we stay, if need be, past August 31 and we announce that so the crush and panic at the airports stop.  Not that the Taliban is or will keep its word not to punish Afghans who worked with us. 

Yes It’s a horrible situation.

[SydneyRover]

I’m going to stick with the current US president who *didn’t* invite the Taliban to the White House.  Trump released 5,000 Taliban prisoners and removed sanctions.  He signed a peace agreement with them and gave them a date that the US would be out, without including the Afghan president in the discussions.  The Taliban has had nine months to pay off the Afghan army (who hadn’t been paid for months) undermine the government and plan this takeover.  The army were ready to lay down their arms when the Taliban came in.

The US has been there through four presidents and not one wanted to admit it was a never ending war or had the will or courage to actually leave.  Over 20 years we have had 2,500 troops killed and Congress just kept approving more and more money.  For what, an Afghan army that fell so easily due to corruption in the Afghan government and our perpetual misunderstanding of their culture and situation?  Our mission was to stop terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base to attack the US after 9/11, not to set up democracy.  We were wrong from the get go to go there. But we should now keep our word and get out along with the Afghans who helped our military while we were there.

Yes, this has been a shit show exit and I’m not sure why but hope we find out.  This second attempt to safely remove Americans and Afghans is going better and hope we can stay with it until all who want and qualify to leave do so safely.  So I think at this point perspective is important. We have taken out 20,000+ people so far, of which only 2,500 are Americans.  Biden is trying to exit without conflict.  It may not be possible, but it would never have been clean or easy.  I just hope we stay, if need be, past August 31 and we announce that so the crush and panic at the airports stop.  Not that the Taliban is or will keep its word not to punish Afghans who worked with us. 

Yes It’s a horrible situation.

Finding out will always be the hard bit Sandy, already we have a PM and a couple of other dicks that couldn't be even arsed to do their jobs. What will be interesting is to know if the exit date was unilateral, whether the rest of the coalition were consulted, to what level and if they just ambled along with it. Future cooperation as a coalition could be under strain if partners find themselves demoted to junior positions without a say in what happens to their own troops.

No coalition partner will want to admit they were blindsided but they will certainly want to cover their own arses.

[hstripes]

I’m going to stick with the current US president who *didn’t* invite the Taliban to the White House.  Trump released 5,000 Taliban prisoners and removed sanctions.  He signed a peace agreement with them and gave them a date that the US would be out, without including the Afghan president in the discussions.  The Taliban has had nine months to pay off the Afghan army (who hadn’t been paid for months) undermine the government and plan this takeover.  The army were ready to lay down their arms when the Taliban came in.

The US has been there through four presidents and not one wanted to admit it was a never ending war or had the will or courage to actually leave.  Over 20 years we have had 2,500 troops killed and Congress just kept approving more and more money.  For what, an Afghan army that fell so easily due to corruption in the Afghan government and our perpetual misunderstanding of their culture and situation?  Our mission was to stop terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base to attack the US after 9/11, not to set up democracy.  We were wrong from the get go to go there. But we should now keep our word and get out along with the Afghans who helped our military while we were there.

Yes, this has been a shit show exit and I’m not sure why but hope we find out.  This second attempt to safely remove Americans and Afghans is going better and hope we can stay with it until all who want and qualify to leave do so safely.  So I think at this point perspective is important. We have taken out 20,000+ people so far, of which only 2,500 are Americans.  Biden is trying to exit without conflict.  It may not be possible, but it would never have been clean or easy.  I just hope we stay, if need be, past August 31 and we announce that so the crush and panic at the airports stop.  Not that the Taliban is or will keep its word not to punish Afghans who worked with us. 

Yes It’s a horrible situation.

Hi Sandy. To be clear I wasn't making a party political point here. My last sentence in the OP was more to highlight how very bad a decision I think this is. It's pretty clear Trump would have almost certainly have made the same decision in which case he would be deserving of the self-same criticism. However as per my OP this is Biden's decision he's had 9 months to change tack but hasn't - he has ownership of it and all the consequences that ensue.

I agree clearly that the withdrawal has been hopelessly mismanaged and is both awful and heartbreaking to witness. Many more people will be killed due to this than would have been with something simply better organized.

My main point is my complete disagreement with the idea of withdrawing from Afghanistan at all though. There's an interview with Tony Blair doing the rounds. Not maybe the best person re decisions on Middle East Foreign policy but on this he is completely correct. Withdrawal is unnecessary and puts our security at threat. The financial cost of recent operations in Afghanistan (support - intel, training, air support etc) are not great for a country of America's resources and the casualty rate is vastly reduced from when coalition troops were directly engaged with the Taliban.

We had a stable situation with an agreement with the Afghan government whereby we supported them to keep their freedoms from a despotic regime whilst stopping terrorists from having a base from where they could attack us. No sensible, logic reason why this couldn't have continued.

Instead Biden has broken this agreement. Perhaps the US has/can agree with the Taliban to keep Al Qaeda and Isis out of the country however: -

a) The Taliban can't be trusted especially as, given the mood of US politicians and the US public against interventions, there is no disincentive for them to do so. Economic sanctions will just mean they turn to China
b) We've left the Afghan people to a terrible fate. I know rescuing the Afghan population wasn't the reason we went there in the first place but what a deeply immoral thing to do esp when the status quo (see above) was working in our best interests as well.

[Sprotyrover]

''Welcome to the website of the German Embassy London and the Consulate General Edinburgh!''

https://uk.diplo.de/uk-en

Let me know how you go I have the other addresses ready for you sprot

I wouldn't waste my time, the same news show had an article about Angela Merkel telling the Ukrainian president that the new northern Gas pipeline would not be used as a weapon against Them by Russian, (fast forwards to This December , the Ukrainians do their usual trick and tap into the Gas pipeline to pinch Gas from the Russians and guess what it's full of something a bit noxious!)

[Sandy Lane]

Hi Sydney and Hstripes,  thanks for your comments.  As I’m sure you could tell I was mostly focused on the US’ role in the exit as it is nonstop criticism here of Biden and the situation the exit has caused.  We have had few references to the UK related to the exit except for an interview I heard the other day in which the UK’s Ambassador to the US spoke to one of our more trusted news stations.  The Ambassador’s comments reiterated that the UK and NATO had approved of the withdrawal.  There was also an interview recently with an American working there who described how the UK assisted her and her Afghan friends/colleagues to get to one of the evacuation planes, which was reassuring. 

However, I was unaware until I read your comments how you felt about your role and to be honest only have that NPR interview for reference.  I found a transcript of it and attached it.  Of course an ambassador will always put a mellow spin on their comments and many times the real story lies beneath.

But I’ll be mindful to read your news articles about it as well. The NPR article did mention an upcoming G7 meeting which hopefully will help the Afghan people when this is over.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/19/1029437801/how-the-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-has-affected-its-relationship-with-the-u

Best,
Sandy

[SydneyRover]

Thanks for your reply Sandy it's good to hear different views.

[Filo]

Never again should we blindly follow America into battle after this calamity of a withdrawal , they invoked article 5 of NATO ensuring that their allies were in on the war in Afganistan, and then they pull the drawbridge up and betray those that helped them

[normal rules]

Never again should we blindly follow America into battle after this calamity of a withdrawal , they invoked article 5 of NATO ensuring that their allies were in on the war in Afganistan, and then they pull the drawbridge up and betray those that helped them

Blair, and everyone after him has spoken of the special relationship between the us and the uk.
The only relationship I’ve seen is they say “jump” and we say “how high”
Everywhere they go, we follow. And they care not fo our politics.

[Sprotyrover]

Get ready for an attack on our troops at Karbul Airport, it's gonna be a bloodbath as our air Support won't be able to assist due to the huge crowds outside he Airport  (I do hope I am wrong ).

[SydneyRover]

I guess with the special relationship down the can and brexit we are just a small Isle with a few notes.

[River Don]

The USA remains the biggest investor in the UK and vica versa.

It maybe one sided but when it comes to business and banking, the two countries remain locked. It's not just that but its the foundation. The relationship may not be that special but it's likely to endure.

Interestingly the second largest investor in the UK isn't European. It's India.

[SydneyRover]

The problem as we have just found (or not) is that the relationship is not just one sided around money RD

[River Don]

No it's not. But there is still a lot of common interests. We've burned a lot of bridges with the EU lately too, so we're still likely to hang on to the US, don't you think?

[SydneyRover]

RD, I don't think we'll totally lose any international friendships at any time but I don't think we should swallow the hype surrounding 'special friendships' and understand that we are just pissing in each other's pockets in times of need. The EU is a more longer term problem as business ties weaken. As our recent ties with India shows, money comes before you or I.

[River Don]

A large explosion outside of Karbul Airport.

Biden claims that the west fulfilled the mission when they put a stop to the terror training camps. That now is the time to pull out because they have assurances from the Taliban that Afghanistan won't be a threat to the outside world.

Well, we now have ISIS-K operating in the country who believe the Taliban is far too liberal!

Somehow I don't think this is mission accomplished.

[normal rules]

The attack on innocent people at Kabul airport simply trying to escape the horror of Taliban rule shows exactly who the group has brought with them.

The pattern is well established - from Nigeria and Mali to Syria and Iraq whenever Islamist extremists take power, terror follows.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Biden makes himself look a fool.  On one hand he says the mission is done they beat terrorism then says they need to leave because of a terror threat. Crazy.

[Filo]

Once the last of the forces have pulled out, half a dozen Typhoons should take out the presidential palace in Kabul and they should also strike hangars throughout the Country where western hardware that was left to the now defunct Afgan army is stored, leave them a reminder of what might happen if they don’t behave

[Sprotyrover]

Get ready for an attack on our troops at Karbul Airport, it's gonna be a bloodbath as our air Support won't be able to assist due to the huge crowds outside he Airport  (I do hope I am wrong ).

Well I’m sorry to say I was right, where is the exit Stratergy….Biden probably writing it on toilet paper as we Speak

[hstripes]

America is a great country and a force for good, it's a beacon for the benefits of democracy and liberty. The problem with the US is it's sheer size relative to the rest of the Western world.

When America occasionally gets things wrong we all suffer and our governments are powerless to do a great deal about it. Think US banking regulation or recent attitude to climate change. What's happening in Afghanistan is I fear another example.

It's important we maintain good relations with the US if only so we can have a word in their ear to help avert them making mistakes that will impact us.

Not that Biden is listening right now. The UK's eminently sensible, life-saving suggestion to extend the timing of withdrawal beyond the arbitrary 31st August deadline simply ignored.

His first test on the world stage as President and Biden I'm afraid is coming across as intellectually deficient, stubborn, isolationist and just plain incompetent.

[Sprotyrover]

U.K. Airlines advised at flying under 25 thousand feet over Afghan Air space,I wonder how many Sam Lock ons are being detected as the transports KHE SAN into Karbul Airport.
2 bitter scenarios
1) get every body out tonight and lose some planes and staff.
2) declare martial law and send out a clear message.If you are on the street or fire at us , We have the Technology,you will be cinders.

[normal rules]

It’s not a bad shout between now and the 31st. Anyone anting to leave, make your way to the airport. Anyone else, go home and stay indoors. If not, we will flatten key installations, starting with the presidential palace.

[Sprotyrover]

U.K. Airlines advised at flying under 25 thousand feet over Afghan Air space,I wonder how many Sam Lock ons are being detected as the transports KHE SAN into Karbul Airport.
2 bitter scenarios
1) get every body out tonight and lose some planes and staff.
2) declare martial law and send out a clear message.If you are on the street or fire at us , We have the Technology,you will be cinders.

Just been watching US General McKenzie on Al Jazeera, he likes option two. However Fanny Biden will have the final say not him, there will be Transports burning "Like Starships at the Tan Hauser gate'!

[River Don]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

[River Don]

The allies originally went into Afghanistan with a mission to dismantle the Al Qeada terror base hosted within that country. That achieved and the Taliban government ousted they set about a decades long nation building project. That has failed.

We leave now with the Taliban restored and an even greater terror threat, ISIS active within the country. It's been left an unmitigated failure. Worse than Saigon.

The only hopes now are, the returning Taliban have become less intolerant... Doubtful. And that the Taliban will be unwilling to host ISIS in the long run and not allow a new international terror base on Afghan soil. There might just be a glimmer of hope in that. If we leave the Afghan extremists at war with each other, as bad as it might be for the local population, it might give the outside world some respite.