Unite Union

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Is it actually possible for labour to win? Probably not in the short term perhaps not in the medium term.  They have moved since the last election but as yet not in a successful manner.

[Ldr]

If they come back more to the centre then of course they do against this shower of shite. If the continue to be as left as they have been, no chance

[Bentley Bullet]

What does it say about the opposition parties if they can't beat a shower of shite?

[SydneyRover]

If they come back more to the centre then of course they do against this shower of shite. If the continue to be as left as they have been, no chance

I guess the trick will be to get a centrist democratic party together with an element of corruption and a whiff of scandal to attract some of voters from further right of centre

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Yep Sydney because comments like that really help the cause of the left don't they.

[SydneyRover]

I didn't think the question deserved any more than that pud.

[Axholme Lion]

https://reclaimparty.co.uk/

Seems to speak sense.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I didn't think the question deserved any more than that pud.

It's odd though. Politics is a game where ultimately you need to be more popular than the others. Yet so many don't get that and rather than attract and convince those with different views on some things they vilify them.

A prime example recently was a young girl on love island on TV who said she was a Tory. Bloody Twitter was full of don't vote for her Tory scum etc.  I mean really?

[scawsby steve]

If they come back more to the centre then of course they do against this shower of shite. If the continue to be as left as they have been, no chance

You obviously didn't read my previous post then. It's because Starmer and his gang went against the far left in the North and North-East that they got slaughtered.

This was further confirmed recently in Hartlepool.

With Starmer in charge, Labour have no chance in the next GE.

[albie]

Sydney,

Have you read the links I posted?
Serious question, because your reply shows no understanding of what is happening in Labour.

"I think you are forgetting that none of the strategy of the previous two campaigns worked and things got disastrously worse under that management team."

Simply not true.
Membership and income rose dramatically, and the numbers voting for Labour were way above the desperate low under Brown. New members are the lifeblood of a thriving party, because it builds for tomorrow.

"If the Corbyn team had shown they were heading in the right direction than they may have gotten another turn on the dance floor instead of being used to wipe it."

I think 2 GE bids is fair enough for a Labour leader. The policies were popular and needed to carry forward under someone who believed in the strategy and policy framework. The policies were clearly heading in the right direction.

"If those in the party want to disrupt and spoil because they have not been given another go then what should the present management do?"

Err...not piss off the financial supporters, and expel people for flimsy excuses to reduce the influence of those with a different opinion.

Summary here in these 4 graphics, please scroll all 4 and read before replying;
https://twitter.com/Agitate4Change/status/1421834307681849344/photo/1

The only strategy I can see at present is to cuddle up to prejudices in the older generation.
This may return a few votes, but it is not a strategy facing the future.

[albie]

Is it actually possible for labour to win? Probably not in the short term perhaps not in the medium term.  They have moved since the last election but as yet not in a successful manner.

I agree with BFYP on this, but probably for different reasons.
The point about building future membership is what I think is important, because I do not see how the numbers work for Labour without winning back Scotland.

This is why the Unite/GMB situation is such an avoidable farce.....why would you do this?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So what elements of the current Starmer strategy are likely to lead to winning an election, Syd?

Labour are not going to be in a position to contest an election with the present mismanagement.
Either because they will not have the finance, or because they will be diminished in numbers to do basic canvassing.

Or both at the same time!

With shit like this going off, what is going to be left;
https://labourhub.org.uk/2021/08/27/such-practices-would-not-be-tolerated-in-the-workplace-nor-in-the-justice-system/amp/

It pains me to say it, as a long time member, but the party is on the skids.

A long time member who hasn't got a good word for the party pre-2015 and refused to vote for Brown when the alternative was putting Cameron in No10 and unleashing Austerity?

[albie]

Incorrect in every point, BST.

Now you have ended your sulk under the duvet, are you ready to reply to the issues put to you earlier in the thread.....that would be good!

[Ldr]

Incorrect in every point, BST.

Now you have ended your sulk under the duvet, are you ready to reply to the issues put to you earlier in the thread.....that would be good!

Ever thought you lose because your all too busy fighting each other?

[albie]

Result from the Labour staff ballot are in;
https://labourlist.org/2021/08/unite-gmb-labour-staff-vote-for-strike-action-against-compulsory-redundancies/

Trade Union members not having it from the silent knight!

[drfchound]

At least someone is getting a striker organised tonight.

[SydneyRover]

Sydney,

Have you read the links I posted?
Serious question, because your reply shows no understanding of what is happening in Labour.

"I think you are forgetting that none of the strategy of the previous two campaigns worked and things got disastrously worse under that management team."

Simply not true.
Membership and income rose dramatically, and the numbers voting for Labour were way above the desperate low under Brown. New members are the lifeblood of a thriving party, because it builds for tomorrow.

"If the Corbyn team had shown they were heading in the right direction than they may have gotten another turn on the dance floor instead of being used to wipe it."

I think 2 GE bids is fair enough for a Labour leader. The policies were popular and needed to carry forward under someone who believed in the strategy and policy framework. The policies were clearly heading in the right direction.

"If those in the party want to disrupt and spoil because they have not been given another go then what should the present management do?"

Err...not piss off the financial supporters, and expel people for flimsy excuses to reduce the influence of those with a different opinion.

Summary here in these 4 graphics, please scroll all 4 and read before replying;
https://twitter.com/Agitate4Change/status/1421834307681849344/photo/1

The only strategy I can see at present is to cuddle up to prejudices in the older generation.
This may return a few votes, but it is not a strategy facing the future.

How many labour members oes it take to win an election?

You get membership up, money in the bank and get thrashed at the election, where the fun in that Albie?

''Have you read the links I posted?
Serious question, because your reply shows no understanding of what is happening in Labour''

Yes I did, I answered the first and you appear to have ignored that answer and all the other comments I have made. The second was just a link supporting the first.

Please look at my comments and think about them in a real world context, the population is not ready to accept a hard left wing government.

Corbyn has shown that he and his team cannot lead the party to victory, you have to accept that, if you can't accept that then this discussion is a total waste of time.

Think back to when a government of the left were last voted into power in the UK and that should tell you what you are up against.

Then explain how you are going to with all the will in the world get a labour government of the left elected.

The party you lead to the next election will have to fight a cashed up tory party in control of most of the media, how will you sell your hard left version of utopia to the masses in the face of this. The media made up total lies about Corbyn and there are spoilers one this thread that repeated them along with others on the forum, it's not that they themselves cared whether they were true or not it gave them something to rally their own with.

If you cannot explain how you and the hard left are going to gain power without the centre then how are you going to have a hope of winning any election.

Please do not use your insults about what news I read or to second guess where I stand politically.

[SydneyRover]

If they come back more to the centre then of course they do against this shower of shite. If the continue to be as left as they have been, no chance

You obviously didn't read my previous post then. It's because Starmer and his gang went against the far left in the North and North-East that they got slaughtered.

This was further confirmed recently in Hartlepool.

With Starmer in charge, Labour have no chance in the next GE.

Let's put Corbyn back in and see if labour could lose any worse next time Steve?

added

Starmer loses one seat .................... Corbyn lost nearly all the f**kin' seats work that one out aye

added more

If Corbyn had won either of the last elections we wouldn't be having this conversation, what do you want someone further left?

[scawsby steve]

If they come back more to the centre then of course they do against this shower of shite. If the continue to be as left as they have been, no chance

You obviously didn't read my previous post then. It's because Starmer and his gang went against the far left in the North and North-East that they got slaughtered.

This was further confirmed recently in Hartlepool.

With Starmer in charge, Labour have no chance in the next GE.

Let's put Corbyn back in and see if labour could lose any worse next time Steve?

added

Starmer loses one seat .................... Corbyn lost nearly all the f**kin' seats work that one out aye

added more

If Corbyn had won either of the last elections we wouldn't be having this conversation, what do you want someone further left?

Someone who can connect with the people of the North and North-East, because without getting them back, Labour's no chance of winning the next GE.

I'm afraid that man isn't Starmer.

[SydneyRover]

If they come back more to the centre then of course they do against this shower of shite. If the continue to be as left as they have been, no chance

You obviously didn't read my previous post then. It's because Starmer and his gang went against the far left in the North and North-East that they got slaughtered.

This was further confirmed recently in Hartlepool.

With Starmer in charge, Labour have no chance in the next GE.

Let's put Corbyn back in and see if labour could lose any worse next time Steve?

added

Starmer loses one seat .................... Corbyn lost nearly all the f**kin' seats work that one out aye

added more

If Corbyn had won either of the last elections we wouldn't be having this conversation, what do you want someone further left?

Someone who can connect with the people of the North and North-East, because without getting them back, Labour's no chance of winning the next GE.

I'm afraid that man isn't Starmer.

It's definitely not Corbyn aye Steve? what you don't appear to be doing is looking out of the window, the people out there do not want a hard left party, labour or anyone else, if you get the NE you will lose most of the rest, simple.

The centre ground is where the political balance point is atm, if you don't have them you don't have government. To form government you need either the left or the right + the centre.

Can you explain how any of this is going to happen? It's one thing to talk about it but to actually make it happen that's a whole different game, talk to someone that campaigns someone that gets out and talks to voters.

[albie]

Sydney,

I think you are confusing different arguments.

No-one is saying Corbyn should remain in charge, he had 2 GE, and improved the total vote for Labour above the low water mark of 28% under the Brown decline.

What is at issue is the strategy and the policy offer.
You reckon it is "hard left", it is nothing of the sort...it is common sense!
It is perfectly possible to develop the popular 2017 and 2019 policy selection under a leader who supports that agenda. Starmer is not that man.

As I have said, I don't think Labour will win the next election, as I cannot see a pathway through FPTP.

The issue of capacity building is central to revive the party. Labour was in terminal decline under the old right, with members reducing and aging. Corbyn was successful in engaging new members.

If you think a return to a far right neo liberal agenda will win the next GE, please explain how that will happen. Polling does not support that view.

How do you think Labour will sell Starmerism in Scotland, without which it is not possible to win a GE. Unionism is a blind alley in policy terms, and swimming against the tide.

Back to the topic, which is the prospect of a strike by Labour staff against the actions of the leadership.

There is the risk that conference will involve picket lines to be crossed by delegates, and funds withdrawn from the party which will worsen the financial crises caused by appalling mismanagement. The Bakers Union are considering disaffiliation.

We can surely agree that a strategy which results in loss of backers is not viable into the future?

[SydneyRover]

Albie, Corbyn was seen as hard left, it doesn't matter who is put in, if the policies remain the same the labour party will not get enough support to form government.

It's not mismanagement if the leadership group has make cuts for the core business to survive. It's not mismanagement for the management group to remove any from that group that are working against the new leadership, you may not like this (I don't like it) but it happens quite often in the corporate world. It would be mismanagement for the leadership group not to act and allow a dissident group within the party to wreck the party.

[albie]

Corbyn has gone from the leadership Syd, it is not relevant to keep harking back to him.

The policies are relevant though. You seem to think that they were not popular, but that is just not so;
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/01/09/eurotrack-corbyns-policies-popular-europe-and-uk

Which Labour Policies do you think needed to be changed, Syd;
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/10/so-how-many-of-jeremy-corbyns-policies.html
None for me...they needed to be built upon, not replaced.
That said, I am open to any policy suggestion you have to improve electoral appeal...so what is it?

The mismanagement is in the creation of the financial problem in the first place.
Labour had a healthy bank balance when Corbyn left, but this has been eroded by loss of members and ridiculous out of court settlements.

It is also mismanagement to expose the party to avoidable legal liabilities, such as those set out in the Labour Hub link I posted above.

There is a real risk of Labour becoming insolvent in the near future, all as a result of decisions taken by Starmer and Evans. That is gross mismanagement.

[SydneyRover]

Corbyn has gone from the leadership Syd, it is not relevant to keep harking back to him.

The policies are relevant though. You seem to think that they were not popular, but that is just not so;
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/01/09/eurotrack-corbyns-policies-popular-europe-and-uk

Which Labour Policies do you think needed to be changed, Syd;
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/10/so-how-many-of-jeremy-corbyns-policies.html
None for me...they needed to be built upon, not replaced.
That said, I am open to any policy suggestion you have to improve electoral appeal...so what is it?

The mismanagement is in the creation of the financial problem in the first place.
Labour had a healthy bank balance when Corbyn left, but this has been eroded by loss of members and ridiculous out of court settlements.

It is also mismanagement to expose the party to avoidable legal liabilities, such as those set out in the Labour Hub link I posted above.

There is a real risk of Labour becoming insolvent in the near future, all as a result of decisions taken by Starmer and Evans. That is gross mismanagement.

If those policies were so popular why didn't labour win is the question Albie and it was the (mis)management of brexit and (mis)management of the antisemitism along with a few other things. If the left were so popular in the party why didn't they elect another leader from the left? It appears there are plenty like yourself that don't accept the new democratically elected leader and some appear to have worked against him, how should the new leader react, pretend to be more left wing? Did the momentum group attract any from the right and centre to the party or were they one dimensional? And the big question is ...... the left have shown twice that they couldn't manage a win, how many goes do you want?

How would you have settled the legal matters, who created them and when, were they classed as mismanagement?

I agree it would be almost impossible for labour to win with any leader, but those on the left seem determined to not give the centre a go and rightly or wrongly I get that feeling from you Albie. So it's not 'the king is dead, long live the king' is it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's a strange logic from the Left.

Corbyn's leadership took Labour to sub-20% in the polls and in national elections 2 years ago. But he was right.

Starmer (for all his many faults) has taken Labour to mid-30s%, but he is wrong.

And the comparisons between the Labour 2010 and 2019 General Election performances ignore the context.

The former was in a context where Labour had been in power for years, had been painted as responsible for the GFC and we're dealing with competition on the Centre-Left from a LD party that was at a generation high.

The latter occured when the Tories were in power and had ripped themselves apart for years over Brexit, and the LDs had collapsed. Or at least they HAD collapsed until Corbyn resurrected them by paying his dues to the ghost of Benn and resurrecting them by his embrace of Brexit in early 2019.

[albie]

Syd,

Once again, there is a difference between the popularity of the leader, and the popularity of the policies.....you continually conflate the two.

Corbyn was undermined by the far right in the PLP, manufactured crises in the mainstream media, and the message from the policies were drowned out. The party machine was also obstructive, all this is well documented.

The biggest obstacle to Labour in 2019 was the strange belief among the right that going for a second ref (at that point) would win support. Starmer was the lead voice in that, and he was disastrously wrong.

If you think the Labour Party works as a democracy, you are not familiar with the mechanisms of the party machine. It should be fully democratic, of course.

I think the mistake that people make is to refer to the past as a guide to the future. BST is very fond of this sort of comparison. It tells you nothing if the change in voting patterns reflect a new political landscape.

The idea that a party must steer to the centre for election success has been blown away by Johnson.

Bozo got his majority by veering to the far right, and captured former Labour voters by exploiting disillusion going back years, and offering a new version of Conservatism.

He got rid of the older guard and replaced them at the top with the extreme rightist ERG, basically a posh Ukip. He was able to sell this as a change to unblock the logjam of the old politics.

All of which is incidental to the position of the Labour Party in relation to the Unions.
Starmer is seeking commercial sponsors to bankroll the organisation, without the agreement of the party. None found, but other sources of income are drying up.

If Pamela Fitz wins in court, it will open the floodgates to class action complaints from those illegally expelled from the Party under retrospective application of new rules. Presumably you do not support expulsions that are outside the law?

So, no more whataboutery.
What do you think about the financial crises, and the stand off with staff over redundancies....this is the topic?

[sha66y]

Is she a looker and can she make a nice cuppa…..?

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is some quite breathtaking re-editing of history there Albie.

The facts are these.

Some of us had been saying for a while that the crisis for Corbyn would come when he had to state explicit where he stood on Brexit. He led a party where the overwhelming majority of members and supporters wanted Ref2.

He came out against that and in favour of leaving in winter 18/19.

Labour then experienced a historically unprecedented haemorrhage of support. In the polls, they lost something like 4 million supporters to the LDs and Greens in the next 4 months.

By spring 19, Labour was seeing poll figures below 20%. In the EU elections it won 13%. Labour was in an existential crisis.

Starmer led the move to smack Corbyn and the 4Ms down and support Ref2 by Autumn 19. The polling figures immediately rebounded and the 19 GE was a disaster, but not the terminal one it would have been under Corbyn's Brexit policy.

The Left airbrush that out of history. Because they want Starmer to be the villain who lost Labour the GE. If it wasn't very serious, it would be laughable.

[albie]

Breathtaking rewriting of history there, BST.

Labour posted just over 32% in the 2019 election, down from 40% in 2017.
Both results very much better than the 28% of votes won under Prudence Broon.

So in what world is it sensible to revert to a position which was losing support at historic rates in 2010?

The other key point is that Starmer was elected on a policy platform to continue the manifesto commitments of 2019. Many gave him support on that basis, and have been let down as a result.

Once again, you ignore the main question of the thread.
What is your view of the trade union stand off, and its implications?

Wake up, Lad...smell the coffee.