Racism in hungary

[selby]

  I'll let you do your own research on that Sha66y, you will be old enough to work it out by yourself I hope.

[sha66y]

It appears that most would rather TOLERATE racial abuse as long as they get to pretend to care, take a knee, and get to watch the game…..

If that isn’t an indication of not giving a fcuk about the black guy …..what is???

It appears that there are only a handful on here that think real actions are better than hollow platitudes!

[tyke1962]

It should be the people at the top leading by example.
Deduct points and make them play home games in a neutral country.
This would soon cost them so much money that the home football associations would have to act or go bankrupt.

You mean the money people at the top of the game who aren't getting racially abused should lead by example .

Yeh  good luck with that and why there's a world cup given to Qatar because those at the top are so righteous .

Money , careers and opportunity all come before doing something that can really make an impact .

Something that may be sacrificial to your bank balance and career but be left in no doubt what so ever it doesn't even register with the sacrifices Mandela , Luther King and Malcolm X made .

And you can't even walk off a football field when your racially abused or your teammate is .

Dear me .

[sha66y]

It should be the people at the top leading by example.
Deduct points and make them play home games in a neutral country.
This would soon cost them so much money that the home football associations would have to act or go bankrupt.

You mean the money people at the top of the game who aren't getting racially abused should lead by example .

Yeh  good luck with that and why there's a world cup given to Qatar because those at the top are so righteous .

Money , careers and opportunity all come before doing something that can really make an impact .

Something that may be sacrificial to your bank balance and career but be left in no doubt what so ever it doesn't even register with the sacrifices Mandela , Luther King and Malcolm X made .

And you can't even walk off a football field when your racially abused or your teammate is .

Dear me .

Too close to the bone that tyke….might force a little integrity …..

[tyke1962]

It should be the people at the top leading by example.
Deduct points and make them play home games in a neutral country.
This would soon cost them so much money that the home football associations would have to act or go bankrupt.

You mean the money people at the top of the game who aren't getting racially abused should lead by example .

Yeh  good luck with that and why there's a world cup given to Qatar because those at the top are so righteous .

Money , careers and opportunity all come before doing something that can really make an impact .

Something that may be sacrificial to your bank balance and career but be left in no doubt what so ever it doesn't even register with the sacrifices Mandela , Luther King and Malcolm X made .

And you can't even walk off a football field when your racially abused or your teammate is .

Dear me .

Too close to the bone that tyke….might force a little integrity …..

If you don't like my principles I have others .

Should be the Labour luvvies mission statement .

Seriously though I know I'm from another generation but fecking hell I'm totally convinced that if Johnson rolled out the 1990 poll tax tomorrow the best they'd do is throw tennis balls as a protest .

[BillyStubbsTears]

I didn't see the incidents and wasn't even aware England had played until I saw the media reports in relation to them.

Assuming they were as bad as reported I wish that the England (and Hungary) players had shown the courage to walk off the pitch.

Where such things occur, regardless of what happens ON the pitch, a 5-0 defeat should be awarded to the team with the miscreant supporters. Both a deterrent and sends out a strong message that such behaviour is utterly unacceptable.

That assumes that "democracy" means nothing more than having a vote.

Functioning democracies require far more than that. In particular, strong institutions to hold Governments to account. Orban in Hungary has spent a decade eroding those in Hungary. Everything from an independent judiciary to critical journalism has been massively weakened, to the extent that he was able to pass a law last year effectively giving him personally the power to rule by diktat.

One of the key features of the EU has been to encourage countries previously ruled by dictators to transition to having functioning and strong democratic structures. That has worked spectacularly well from Portugal to Estonia. That is what I mean when I say the EU has supported democracy and prevented countries lapsing into authoritarianism.

 There is no way that, if the current Hungary was not an EU member, it would be allowed to join the EU. And the fact that the EU hasn't taken effective action against the Orban regime is a massive failing.

[SydneyRover]

Do you support blm Tyke?

So I take it that's a no then, unless I missed it.

A show of support developed by black people for black people, non political, from the bottom up which if adopted right around the country at every match would give support to them and show the leadership of every organisation not just football, because football is one of the many many things in a non-white persons life they have to put up with just because of their colour and give them support.

Oh I'd rather not thanks boooooooooooooooooooo

[tyke1962]

Do you support blm Tyke?

So I take it that's a no then, unless I missed it.

A show of support developed by black people for black people, non political, from the bottom up which if adopted right around the country at every match would give support to them and show the leadership of every organisation not just football, because football is one of the many many things in a non-white persons life they have to put up with just because of their colour and give them support.

Oh I'd rather not thanks boooooooooooooooooooo

So to join the anti racism stand means you have to embrace the BLM.

Is that what you are telling me ?

So I can't work it out for myself and take the path I choose personally to take whilst finding racism abhorrent .

I have to embrace an American import blowing the critical race theory trumpet just to be on the right side of this thing .

I'm well past fashion accessories Sydney and I'm comfortably in my own skin .

Amazingly they said the less intelligent amongst us fell for the 3 syllables .

[SydneyRover]

Just tell me in plain English without the histrionics why you can't support something that they have asked people to do, what is the cost to you? It's what they want you to do not the other way around.

[tyke1962]

Just tell me in plain English without the histrionics why you can't support something that they have asked people to do, what is the cost to you? It's what they want you to do not the other way around.

It's what they want me to do ?

Wow , I've my own mind on what i support and what i don't .

[SydneyRover]

Just tell me in plain English without the histrionics why you can't support something that they have asked people to do, what is the cost to you? It's what they want you to do not the other way around.

It's what they want me to do ?

Wow , I've my own mind on what i support and what i don't .

I have my answer thanks Tyke, go to bed

[tyke1962]

Just tell me in plain English without the histrionics why you can't support something that they have asked people to do, what is the cost to you? It's what they want you to do not the other way around.

It's what they want me to do ?

Wow , I've my own mind on what i support and what i don't .

I have my answer thanks Tyke, go to bed

You have the answer that exits inside your head Sydney .

There's nothing I can say that will ever change your prejudice .

The same prejudice that claims every Tory or Tory voter is a shytehouse or every brexiter is thick , racist or even both .

It amazes me that those who cry for tolerance find it extremely difficult to be .... Hmmm tolerant .

[SydneyRover]

''It's what they want me to do ?

Wow , I've my own mind on what i support and what i don't .''

This tyke, says it all, the black minority following centuries of slavery and oppression making the country rich the riches that are not available to all on an equal basis, have asked for your help, everyone's help in supporting them to bring about some sort of equality but you are your own man you make the decisions on how you will help them, it may not be what they want, it may not give them the support they want but it's all you are prepared to offer.

[tyke1962]

''It's what they want me to do ?

Wow , I've my own mind on what i support and what i don't .''

This tyke, says it all, the black minority following centuries of slavery and oppression making the country rich the riches that are not available to all on an equal basis, have asked for your help, everyone's help in supporting them to bring about some sort of equality but you are your own man you make the decisions on how you will help them, it may not be what they want, it may not give them the support they want but it's all you are prepared to offer.

So I take your point and at least in my mind you are speaking up on behalf of a US import that has no relevance here in the UK .

Do black people here die at the hands of some PD on a fairly regular basis , no they don't .

Are the problems in the US our problems ?

Does the problems in the US have a voice inside an English football stadium ? ....... Debatable .

Debatable is rather the issue isn't it rather than the prejudice shown by many on the so called modern left today .

If your not a lover of taking the knee at Oakwell your a racist .

If you voted brexit then equally so .

Tolerance , wow who knew ?

[SydneyRover]

''It's what they want me to do ?

Wow , I've my own mind on what i support and what i don't .''

This tyke, says it all, the black minority following centuries of slavery and oppression making the country rich the riches that are not available to all on an equal basis, have asked for your help, everyone's help in supporting them to bring about some sort of equality but you are your own man you make the decisions on how you will help them, it may not be what they want, it may not give them the support they want but it's all you are prepared to offer.

So I take your point and at least in my mind you are speaking up on behalf of a US import that has no relevance here in the UK .

Do black people here die at the hands of some PD on a fairly regular basis , no they don't .

Are the problems in the US our problems ?

Does the problems in the US have a voice inside an English football stadium ? ....... Debatable .

Debatable is rather the issue isn't it rather than the prejudice shown by many on the so called modern left today .

If your not a lover of taking the knee at Oakwell your a racist .

If you voted brexit then equally so .

Tolerance , wow who knew ?

Yep I know you are your own man tyke.

[SydneyRover]

''Racism and disorder during England’s win in Hungary was completely preventable''

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2021/sep/03/racism-and-disorder-during-englands-win-in-hungary-was-completely-preventable-fifa-uefa

We can of course walk and chew gum, we can and should support protest about the lack of action by the FA, FIFA and any other organisation but we can also support our friends neighbours and players at a local level.

I'm an individual oi!

[tyke1962]

''Racism and disorder during England’s win in Hungary was completely preventable''

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2021/sep/03/racism-and-disorder-during-englands-win-in-hungary-was-completely-preventable-fifa-uefa

We can of course walk and chew gum, we can and should support protest about the lack of action by the FA, FIFA and any other organisation but we can also support our friends neighbours and players at a local level.

I'm an individual oi!

So you continue to shift this thing towards the authorities .

The authorities who if the truth be told couldn't give a feck as long as they keep their well paid jobs and the money keeps rolling in that clearly in today's world is the only credibility they need .

The players and management seem to be somewhere between a collective and individual aspiration and aren't particularly great at both .

A sign of the time's we live in perhaps and as good a conflicted stance you are probably going to see.

Millionaire individualism seeks collectivety ?

And an authority that seeks money above moral responsibility makes this gig a bit of a challenge .

Excuse me if I don't buy in to this in a way you find acceptable Sydney .

[SydneyRover]

ooh, ark at im

''So you continue to shift this thing towards the authorities''

Huodini of the forum that will drag the labour party the top of the organisation anything lying around that you think someone maybe distracted by and throw in a few insults here and there, but you are your own man and no one can ask anything of you.

[hstripes]

I didn't see the incidents and wasn't even aware England had played until I saw the media reports in relation to them.

Assuming they were as bad as reported I wish that the England (and Hungary) players had shown the courage to walk off the pitch.

Where such things occur, regardless of what happens ON the pitch, a 5-0 defeat should be awarded to the team with the miscreant supporters. Both a deterrent and sends out a strong message that such behaviour is utterly unacceptable.

That assumes that "democracy" means nothing more than having a vote.

Functioning democracies require far more than that. In particular, strong institutions to hold Governments to account. Orban in Hungary has spent a decade eroding those in Hungary. Everything from an independent judiciary to critical journalism has been massively weakened, to the extent that he was able to pass a law last year effectively giving him personally the power to rule by diktat.

One of the key features of the EU has been to encourage countries previously ruled by dictators to transition to having functioning and strong democratic structures. That has worked spectacularly well from Portugal to Estonia. That is what I mean when I say the EU has supported democracy and prevented countries lapsing into authoritarianism.

 There is no way that, if the current Hungary was not an EU member, it would be allowed to join the EU. And the fact that the EU hasn't taken effective action against the Orban regime is a massive failing.

Thank you for clarifying. I agree that the EU has done massive and important work in building up robust political and judicial institutions and 'checks and balances' in many member states. I would just disagree with you on semantics only then given the undemocratic nature of the EU itself. What it gives in terms of democratic legitimacy with one hand (the level given depending on the recent history of the country) it takes with the other through its centralisation of powers.

Of course it is possible to have highly modern, robust political institutions outside of a democracy. The EU itself being the most obvious example.

At the most fundamental level democracy does mean allowing the people to vote in and out their political leaders. Something Hungary has, in spite of its current governments behaviour, but lamentably the EU does not.

I wouldn't disagree that the EU has failed to a degree with Hungary but wouldn't be as critical as you are. Would Hungary remain a democracy, in terms of having free elections, were it to fall out of the EU? I suspect not so anything the EU does must be counter productive. Throwing Hungary out of the EU evidently so. Putting in harsh sanctions potentially encouraging Hungary's departure whilst punishing a country for following the 'political will' of its electorate - manna from heaven for eurosceptics throughout the continent.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm happy to accept that membership of the EU entails a degree of loss of sovereignty, but the argument that it means countries become significantly undemocratic, compared to the recent and medium past history of Europe really doesn't stand up.

On voting=democracy, if that were the case, Belarus and Russia would be functioning democracies.

The Freedom House research institute ranks countries by their level of political freedom. Essentially how free and fair their democratic processes are. Hungary stands out as having the lowest score in the EU by far. It is on a par with Nepal and the Dominican Republic.

[hstripes]

I'm happy to accept that membership of the EU entails a degree of loss of sovereignty, but the argument that it means countries become significantly undemocratic, compared to the recent and medium past history of Europe really doesn't stand up.

On voting=democracy, if that were the case, Belarus and Russia would be functioning democracies.

The Freedom House research institute ranks countries by their level of political freedom. Essentially how free and fair their democratic processes are. Hungary stands out as having the lowest score in the EU by far. It is on a par with Nepal and the Dominican Republic.

I don't disagree with anything you have written here. I haven't argued that countries have become less democratic under the EU as they were behind the Iron Curtain for instance - that would be nonsense. I agree membership of the EU involves a loss of sovereignty. This for me would be acceptable were those in charge at the EU democratically accountable themselves.

Saying the current diminished level of democratic accountability in a nation is acceptable because it is better, even significantly so, than what has come before doesn't wash with me however.

The elections in Belarus and Russia are not free. They are fixed and rigged with opponents crushed, limited electoral choice, no free press etc etc. Elections in Hungary are free - yes comparatively - with genuine alternatives on the ballot paper who are free to campaign.

I don't doubt either that Hungary ranks low compared to the rest of the EU in terms of democratic freedoms either. Unfortunately, though I agree the EU should shoulder some criticism for this, as explained previously I think they're in a bit of a Catch-22 position in terms of doing anything about it

[dickos1]

And there we go Tyke.

You, a white man are deciding how black men should respond to racist abuse.

You conclude that because they responded in the way they did, they don't really care about racism, they are more interested in 3 points.

And you conclude from that that when they DO display their feelings about racism, that is virtue signalling.

Do you see the issue I'm having with that?

What clearly escapes you is that actions speak louder than words .

When the England players were celebrating in front of the Hungarian ultras and getting pelted with cups and monkey noises were clearly heard then why didn't they walk off ?

What was stopping them ?

They continued to play the game and then complain afterwards when they had three world cup points in the bag .

Are you seriously suggesting only a black person is allowed to say that ?I

That's what I saw right in front of me , the England players took the knee at the start of the game and when the racism was directed against at least two of the players they did nowt about it .

How much evidence of virtue signalling do you need ?

The players walked off 2 years ago in Bulgaria. Nothing happened, nothing changed!
Maybe they’ve thought what’s the point in walking off,

[tyke1962]

And there we go Tyke.

You, a white man are deciding how black men should respond to racist abuse.

You conclude that because they responded in the way they did, they don't really care about racism, they are more interested in 3 points.

And you conclude from that that when they DO display their feelings about racism, that is virtue signalling.

Do you see the issue I'm having with that?

What clearly escapes you is that actions speak louder than words .

When the England players were celebrating in front of the Hungarian ultras and getting pelted with cups and monkey noises were clearly heard then why didn't they walk off ?

What was stopping them ?

They continued to play the game and then complain afterwards when they had three world cup points in the bag .

Are you seriously suggesting only a black person is allowed to say that ?I

That's what I saw right in front of me , the England players took the knee at the start of the game and when the racism was directed against at least two of the players they did nowt about it .

How much evidence of virtue signalling do you need ?

The players walked off 2 years ago in Bulgaria. Nothing happened, nothing changed!
Maybe they’ve thought what’s the point in walking off,

They stood at the side of the pitch in Bulgaria I'll give you that as per the protocol whilst the PA system warned the racists .

The racists eventually left and the match was completed .

So they did something about it and the racists left .

Not ideal by any means but something was achieved that night in Bulgaria .

They did absolutely nothing in Budapest .

[dickos1]

And there we go Tyke.

You, a white man are deciding how black men should respond to racist abuse.

You conclude that because they responded in the way they did, they don't really care about racism, they are more interested in 3 points.

And you conclude from that that when they DO display their feelings about racism, that is virtue signalling.

Do you see the issue I'm having with that?

What clearly escapes you is that actions speak louder than words .

When the England players were celebrating in front of the Hungarian ultras and getting pelted with cups and monkey noises were clearly heard then why didn't they walk off ?

What was stopping them ?

They continued to play the game and then complain afterwards when they had three world cup points in the bag .

Are you seriously suggesting only a black person is allowed to say that ?I

That's what I saw right in front of me , the England players took the knee at the start of the game and when the racism was directed against at least two of the players they did nowt about it .

How much evidence of virtue signalling do you need ?

The players walked off 2 years ago in Bulgaria. Nothing happened, nothing changed!
Maybe they’ve thought what’s the point in walking off,

They stood at the side of the pitch in Bulgaria I'll give you that as per the protocol whilst the PA system warned the racists .

The racists eventually left and the match was completed .

So they did something about it and the racists left .

Not ideal by any means but something was achieved that night in Bulgaria .

They did absolutely nothing in Budapest .

If you listened to the interviews neither Kane nor southgate had heard the abuse.
It was the tv reporter who was in the crowd who informed both Kane and southgate of it after the game

[sha66y]

And there we go Tyke.

You, a white man are deciding how black men should respond to racist abuse.

You conclude that because they responded in the way they did, they don't really care about racism, they are more interested in 3 points.

And you conclude from that that when they DO display their feelings about racism, that is virtue signalling.

Do you see the issue I'm having with that?

What clearly escapes you is that actions speak louder than words .

When the England players were celebrating in front of the Hungarian ultras and getting pelted with cups and monkey noises were clearly heard then why didn't they walk off ?

What was stopping them ?

They continued to play the game and then complain afterwards when they had three world cup points in the bag .

Are you seriously suggesting only a black person is allowed to say that ?I

That's what I saw right in front of me , the England players took the knee at the start of the game and when the racism was directed against at least two of the players they did nowt about it .

How much evidence of virtue signalling do you need ?

The players walked off 2 years ago in Bulgaria. Nothing happened, nothing changed!
Maybe they’ve thought what’s the point in walking off,

Then what’s the point of taking the knee and crying about being racially abused…nothing happens , nothing changes!

They are in a position now to make things change under the current climate……that’s if they really are bothered about change!

They walk off and hold a press conference expressing that they will not play for their country ever again if it isn’t sorted…..trust me that would send a very clear message to all BAME footballers to do the same…

However if they don’t become proactive and are only prepared to cry after the event, then it will never go away, ever!

Shit…..or get off the pot!

[SydneyRover]

Nothing will change while good people do nothing

[sha66y]

Nothing will change while good people do nothing

Nothing will change until those directly affected do something instead of worrying about their fcukin personal profile….and expecting everyone else to make a stand for them……… if ya pissed, stay pissed, get angry …but DO SOMETHING,!

[SydneyRover]

Nothing will change while good people do nothing

Nothing will change until those directly affected do something instead of worrying about their fcukin personal profile….and expecting everyone else to make a stand for them……… if ya pissed, stay pissed, get angry …but DO SOMETHING,!

Sounds like you know more about what they want than they do shaggy

[drfchound]

So, what has anyone on this forum actually done to help stamp out racism.
Genuine question chaps.

[Axholme Lion]

So, what has anyone on this forum actually done to help stamp out racism.
Genuine question chaps.

I have booed the racist, divisive taking of the knee at The Den along with Mahlon Romeo's black power salute, which is the equivalent of a Nazi salute, but he seems to have got away with that.
All this rubbish causes divisions where previously little existed.