Sovrenty, what is it good for ......................

[SydneyRover]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

[Axholme Lion]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.

[Axholme Lion]

Would that be sovereignty we're talking about as i don't know what sovrenty is?

[SydneyRover]

Wrong question/answer, what is sovereignty worth if you lose freedoms and the answer is nothing, if you end up as a slave or a wage slave as the tories dismantle workers rights and many others rights what is it's worth?

They are making it difficult as possible to vote, to question the decisions the government makes, to protest, to blow the whistle on corporate and government wrongdoing and expanding the official secrets act.

[Filo]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.

43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate

[River Don]

You probably need to ask the people of Hong Kong or Taiwan what the value of sovereignty is.

[SydneyRover]

And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.

Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.

[drfchound]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.

43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate

But it was the biggest share of those who bothered to vote.

[Axholme Lion]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.

43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate

It might not be, but it's more than anyone else got and enough to win again. I think people look around themselves and imagine the rest of the country to be and think as it is around here, but it clearly isn't like that. Obviously large parts of England are more than happy to have a Conservative government.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've often wondered if only a minority of people know the difference between a majority and a plurality.

[River Don]

And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.

Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.

On that basis are Hong Kong and Taiwan better off jacking democracy and freedom of speach in and throwing their lot in with the Chinese?

[SydneyRover]

And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.

Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.

On that basis are Hong Kong and Taiwan better off jacking democracy and freedom of speach in and throwing their lot in with the Chinese?

Same question for the Ukraine I guess, the west can only do so much to help, we have to find a way to negotiate there is no other way, I'm hoping Biden will but it won't save HK and it may not save Taiwan.

[River Don]

And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.

Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.

On that basis are Hong Kong and Taiwan better off jacking democracy and freedom of speach in and throwing their lot in with the Chinese?

Same question for the Ukraine I guess, the west can only do so much to help, we have to find a way to negotiate there is no other way, I'm hoping Biden will but it won't save HK and it may not save Taiwan.

Not sure about Bonanza but the bundle of sticks representing strength through unity was the Fasces, symbol of Mussolinis Facist party and where the word fascism derives.

I'm also not sure if it wasn't Ghengis Khan who first used the analogy. He wasn't a very nice chap either.

[SydneyRover]

You may not like it RD but the UK will be hitching her skirts up and asking the EU for more pencils of the balloon goes up.

[River Don]

You may not like it RD but the UK will be hitching her skirts up and asking the EU for more pencils of the balloon goes up.

It is possible to act in a common cause with allied nations without actually becoming part of a pan European political union.

[Axholme Lion]

You may not like it RD but the UK will be hitching her skirts up and asking the EU for more pencils of the balloon goes up.

When the EU contributes to defence half as much as this country let me know. We have a whole bunch of dead service people to prove it.

[belton rover]

I've often wondered if only a minority of people know the difference between a majority and a plurality.

Do you know the difference between plurality and puerility?

[Welling Rover]

"43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate"

Perhaps you can tell us when was the last time any government had over 50% of the electorate ?

[Filo]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.

43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate

But it was the biggest share of those who bothered to vote.

Did anyone say any different?

[drfchound]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.

43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate

But it was the biggest share of those who bothered to vote.

Did anyone say any different?

Did I say they had.

[selby]

  Can I ask how many seats in The House of Commons the Conservatives won with 43.6% of the vote, and how many the losers won with the rest? I always thought the most number of seats a party won formed the government.

[normal rules]

And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.

Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.

We have strength in numbers through NATO.

[Filo]

  Can I ask how many seats in The House of Commons the Conservatives won with 43.6% of the vote, and how many the losers won with the rest? I always thought the most number of seats a party won formed the government.

You are correct, but 43.6% is still not the majority of the electorate, no matter how you try to dress it up

[Welling Rover]

Still not answered my question Filo

[Filo]

"43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate"

Perhaps you can tell us when was the last time any government had over 50% of the electorate ?

I can’t tell you that, but my point still remains the same regarding the original statement made by Axholme Lion, but what I will add is that 56.7% of the people that voted did not vote for a Tory Govt, so however way you want to dress it up a majority of people didn’t vote for them, they are in power because of our out dated FPTP system

[Welling Rover]

That's correct Filo it's the system we have in the UK. Having said that you have to go back to about 1930 for the last time a party polled over 50 % of the votes cast. To change the system would mean a proportional  representation system and would probably mean a series if not permanent coalition Governments'
Which party in government is going to initiate that. Bit like turkeys voting for xmas !!

[drfchound]

Bang on Welling.  FPTP has never been questioned when Labour won a GE has it.

[normal rules]

The first Labour majority government was elected in 1945.
The highest share of the vote received by Labour in a general election was 48.8% in 1951, when the Conservatives won the most seats despite polling fewer votes. Labour’s worst general election performance of the post-war years was in 1983, with 27.6% of the vote and 209 seats.
In 1997, Labour’s 418 seats were the highest ever number for a single party.
In 2019, Labour won 202 seats, their lowest number since 1935.

[drfchound]

The first Labour majority government was elected in 1945.
The highest share of the vote received by Labour in a general election was 48.8% in 1951, when the Conservatives won the most seats despite polling fewer votes. Labour’s worst general election performance of the post-war years was in 1983, with 27.6% of the vote and 209 seats.
In 1997, Labour’s 418 seats were the highest ever number for a single party.
In 2019, Labour won 202 seats, their lowest number since 1935.

Yep and labours proportion of the votes in 1997 was 43.2%.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Personally, I've always supported having a proper PR system. The current system is an outrage against the very concept of democracy. It gives all but untrammeled power to whoever can get 40-ish percent of the vote, or sometimes not even that. Even if that delivers my ideal Government, it is absolutely indefensible.

If there was a serious mass movement in the country for PR, I'd be on the streets demonstrating at every opportunity.