Heat Pumps

[River Don]

So the government give you five grand towards replacing your gas boiler.

Apparently though that's only half the cost of a pump. Then you're going to need new plumbing, bigger radiators, lots of insulation.

And then after spending all that, it costs about the same as a gas boiler to run. Or perhaps you could fork out some more for solar panels to help bring the cost down.

And you've got to be really careful about getting qualified people to do it, there are many stories of cold houses and very expensive running costs.

I want to try and be green but I don't think I can afford this. I'll be sticking with the gas boiler for as long as I can. There's more scope for insulating our house, I think that's where I'm investing.

[albie]

Yes, insulation is the first thing to consider, whatever system you use.

The support for heat pumps at £5k is a one off lump sum.
Under the renewable heating grant previously it was up to £7k, paid in instalments each year.

The government strategy assumes that 200,000 of the installations will be in new build...about a third of the take up. I reckon it will be more to new build, because it does not make sense to install systems which are about to be phased out.

Keep in mind that they also plan to move price support from gas to electricity, so over time the cost of running a gas boiler will increase relative to the alternatives.

The whole package assumes that the cost of heat pumps will fall quickly, like with solar and wind.
Maybe, or maybe not!

[River Don]

It makes sense for new builds, they can put in the underground pipes for ground source heat, they can build with underfloor heating in mind, get the insulation up to scratch and put solar panels in.

In fact it should be happening already, except the builders successfully lobbied George Osbourne to put it all off. Greenest government ever? That was Cameron's promise...

[River Don]

I wonder how much scope there is to bring the cost of heat pump heating systems down? It's not new tech like a solar panel.

I suppose economies of scale might come in but a big radiator isn't going to get any cheaper. Tearing up flooring to get at pipes isn't going to get cheaper. Digging up gardens won't get cheaper.

[ravenrover]

Lets face it, which class of person has the amount of land required and is likely and able to afford the upgrade? Money for mates again IMHO

[River Don]

Couldn't agree more Raven.

It really is a give away to those with £10, £15, £20 grand to spare.

The original plan of subsidising insulation was much more egalitarian and much more likely to be taken up widely, which was why it was scrapped.

[drfchound]

My Labour supporting neighbour installed a heat pump not so long ago.
I don’t think he will be classed at “a mate” of the government.

[River Don]

Do you know how much it cost him hound?

And do you have any idea what the running costs are?

I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.

[drfchound]

Do you know how much it cost him hound?

And do you have any idea what the running costs are?

I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.

He told me that the whole job came in at around £14,000.
He now doesn’t have any gas going into the house and everything, including cooking, runs off electric.
His wife has been poorly for quite some time now and he said that although he had the heating on 24/7 last winter, his energy bill was still considerably less than it had been the previous winter.

[River Don]

Interesting Hound.

Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?

[drfchound]

Interesting Hound.

Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?

It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.

[River Don]

Interesting Hound.

Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?

It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.

Probably not a bad spec then. I'm in a 1970s house (the kind of thing Bob Ferris bought in The Likely Lads) it needs work.

[albie]

The cost is going to vary depending upon whether you already have underfloor heating, and a hot water tank etc.

If you have solar, then the leccy to run the heat pump is cheaper than chips during the day.

A big if is how quickly government move support from gas to electricity.  A new gas boiler could be a mistake if the unit cost rises year by year, while electricity stays the same.

General guide here from the Energy Saving Trust;
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/what-is-a-heat-pump-and-why-are-they-important/

It sounds like RD might need to retrofit insulation first, but Hound is good to go if next door is a guide.

One thing to consider is if you are staying put.....not a lot of point if you plan to move soonish!

[SydneyRover]

''n fact, much of the data seems to suggest that UK properties experience even more of a value increase than homes in America. ... Plus, according to Greenlancer, not only do homes with solar panels generally sell for more money, but they have historically sold faster than homes without panels.6 Oct 2021''

''Solar Panels Affect Your Property's Value? | The Eco Experts''

cannot speak to the accuracy of this.

https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/property-value#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20much%20of%20the,increase%20than%20homes%20in%20America.&text=Plus%2C%20according%20to%20Greenlancer%2C%20not,faster%20than%20homes%20without%20panels.

[drfchound]

The cost is going to vary depending upon whether you already have underfloor heating, and a hot water tank etc.

If you have solar, then the leccy to run the heat pump is cheaper than chips during the day.

A big if is how quickly government move support from gas to electricity.  A new gas boiler could be a mistake if the unit cost rises year by year, while electricity stays the same.

General guide here from the Energy Saving Trust;
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/what-is-a-heat-pump-and-why-are-they-important/

It sounds like RD might need to retrofit insulation first, but Hound is good to go if next door is a guide.

One thing to consider is if you are staying put.....not a lot of point if you plan to move soonish!

Albie, my house and my neighbours house are nothing like each other.

[albie]

Fair enough, Hound.
I did say "if", cos I am not to know!

I forgot to say Octopus Energy are saying that they will have AS heat pumps at the same price as gas boilers when the grant becomes available in April.

I will wait and see on that!

[Axholme Lion]

Interesting Hound.

Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?

It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.

Probably not a bad spec then. I'm in a 1970s house (the kind of thing Bob Ferris bought in The Likely Lads) it needs work.

How's Thelma?

[drfchound]

Fair enough, Hound.
I did say "if", cos I am not to know!

I forgot to say Octopus Energy are saying that they will have AS heat pumps at the same price as gas boilers when the grant becomes available in April.

I will wait and see on that!

Interesting.
I was a Plumbers Merchant before I retired and heat pumps were just beginning to come to the fore.
As you know, way more expensive than gas boilers, even the better ones like Vaillant.
I am with Octopus so I will keep an eye on what you have said.

[albie]

Here is what Octopus are saying;
https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1508461/octopus-energy-heat-and-buildings-strategy-boris-johnson-kwasi-kwarteng-cop26

The section on their website was written in May, before the new scheme was announced;
https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

It might be just PR bluster!

[ravenrover]

Do you know how much it cost him hound?

And do you have any idea what the running costs are?

I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.

He told me that the whole job came in at around £14,000.
He now doesn’t have any gas going into the house and everything, including cooking, runs off electric.
His wife has been poorly for quite some time now and he said that although he had the heating on 24/7 last winter, his energy bill was still considerably less than it had been the previous winter.

Labour supporter or not bet he must have a bob or two

[River Don]

Interesting Hound.

Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?

It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.

Probably not a bad spec then. I'm in a 1970s house (the kind of thing Bob Ferris bought in The Likely Lads) it needs work.

How's Thelma?

She seems fine. Getting on a bit now. I genuinely know this because I saw her a few weeks ago shopping in our local big Sainsbury's.

[drfchound]

Do you know how much it cost him hound?

And do you have any idea what the running costs are?

I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.

He told me that the whole job came in at around £14,000.
He now doesn’t have any gas going into the house and everything, including cooking, runs off electric.
His wife has been poorly for quite some time now and he said that although he had the heating on 24/7 last winter, his energy bill was still considerably less than it had been the previous winter.

Labour supporter or not bet he must have a bob or two

He will have but some people seem to think that only people who support the other lot have money.
Money for mates etc, and it isn’t aimed at just you by the way Raven.

[albie]

British Gas now matching Octopus on the installation of heat pumps, according to the Torygraph;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/16/british-gas-kicks-price-war-heat-pumps/

Looking a good option if you need to renew your system, even better with the solar providing the leccy.

I wonder how Hound is getting on with his.

[Dutch Uncle]

The cost is going to vary depending upon whether you already have underfloor heating, and a hot water tank etc.

If you have solar, then the leccy to run the heat pump is cheaper than chips during the day.

It makes sense for new builds, they can put in the underground pipes for ground source heat, they can build with underfloor heating in mind, get the insulation up to scratch and put solar panels in.

I am not up to speed at all on this - but interested. I am in a house which was a new build when I moved in 9 years ago, well insulated and underfloor heating - but run by gas. Are you suggesting switching to geothermal heating might make sense because it can be built to feed the existing underfloor heating, thus potentially saving a lot of cost?

[albie]

Dutch Uncle,

It sounds like you are well suited to an Air Source heat pump.
Contact your electricity provider to see what they can offer, if they are not yet up to speed on this, British Gas and Octopus will offer a deal.

Now BG are in the game, all the others will need to step up smartish, or miss the market growth.
I don't know if you have a south facing roof, but solar to provide the electricity for the heat pump (and the house) is worth looking at. All depending on what you think the cost of electricity is going to be going forward.

Energy Saving Trust website is a good place to look, but I don't know if NI has different rules to here.
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/
and on heat pumps specifically;
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/energy-at-home/heating-your-home/heat-pumps/

The post from River Don is about ground source heat pumps, which make sense at the construction stage, but not really for retrofit.

[Dutch Uncle]

Very many thanks Albie, much appreciated.

Edit: Fortunately looking at your link the air source heat pump can be at ground level (roof would be a problem). I have a west facing sheltered garden which should be good. I am very close to neighbours though, will have to check out noise. Will research. My main aim is simply to be more green, and away from gas has to be a long term goal.

[albie]

Dutch,

New models of ASHP have reduced the noise issue, manufacturers seeing it as a sales benefit.
The new Samsung quiet heat pump available from November 2022:
https://www.hpmmag.com/news/samsung-launches-new-low-noise-heat-pump

This 10 min vid from Fully Charged takes you through a beginners guide:
https://fullycharged.show/episodes/how-do-heat-pumps-work-this-is-the-future-of-heating/

[BillyStubbsTears]

From the figures I've seen, solar power for the heat pump electricity doesn't make sense.

 Typical household heating requirement is 12,000kWh per year.

The standard figure for the efficiency of heat pumps is 3, meaning 1kWh of input electric will give you 3kWh of heating.

So you will use 4000kWh per year of electric to run the pump.

At current rates that's about £1300 of electric. At the rate we expect electricity to go to in April, that would be £2000 per year.

I've had a quote for a decent sized solar electric system which would be estimated to produce 2800kWh of electricity per year. So that is already only 70% of the requirement. But it's worse than that. Most of the solar electricity production is in the warmer months of the year, when you don't need heating. The solar panels would produce very little electricity in mid winter when you really want it, and obviously none during darkness (4pm-8am in late December).

The only way I can see that it comes remotely close to  making financial sense is to have a big battery installed and charge that up overnight on Economy7.

[albie]

BST,

Yes, I should have said solar with battery storage.

Very difficult to assess the cost profile on this without knowing the likely costs of electricity in the future. While installation costs are now greatly reduced, the payback period will depend on the usage pattern and the tariff rate.

With all these assessments a site visit from a professional is required.
If you are at the point of replacing a gas boiler anyway, then you do not need to swap out like for like.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

I may be missing something fundamental here, but I just don't see how the solar aspect makes any significant impact on the overall cost of running the heat pump. It might scratch at the surface of the costs, but that's it.

I'm very much in favour of decarbonising domestic heating, but I think people need to go into this with their eyes open. I've seen several folk online hinting that a heat pump and solar electricity gives you low cost or free heating. I cannot see how that is possible, much as I'd like it to be. At best, after allowing for up front capital costs, it would be very unlikely to break even over the medium term, without a big drop in electricity prices.