Labour Support Required

[tyke1962]

Just to clarify why I feel so strongly about this and why it may not come across too well especially if people have lost family and close friends to Covid .

I've seen a Police State in this country before in the strike , I've seen what the state is capable of when it has an agenda .

I've seen the Police become the government's paramilitary wing and I've seen people arrested for simply crossing the border in to another county .

I've seen the BBC deliberately frame  Orgreave to suit the government agenda and I'm still waiting for the papers to be released in to the public domain .

I'm not a covid denier or a conspiracy theorist I'm just someone whose lived a life with some previous .

Crossing the County border, for what purpose?

To try and persuade people by any means possible that by continuing to work placed the whole mining Industry under huge threat  including themselves .

Which is exactly how it played out .

Now time is a great thing and looking back in 2021 it doesn't do this the justice it deserves .

Thatcher's Britain was to be thrown on the scrap heap with little or no chance of finding anything else for a significantly long time .

If that escapes you then unfortunately there's little I can do other than tell you how I saw it .

[SydneyRover]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

[tyke1962]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .

The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .

A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .

I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.

[SydneyRover]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .

The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .

A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .

I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .

The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.

[tyke1962]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .

The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .

A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .

I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .

The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.

I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .

[SydneyRover]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .

The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .

A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .

I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .

The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.

I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .

Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.

[tyke1962]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .

The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .

A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .

I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .

The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.

I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .

Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.

What completely passes you by is your Utopia isn't my Utopia Sydney .

The truth is as far as I'm concerned is that it's like asking me to chose between losing six nil under the Tories or losing five nil under  the present Labour Party .

In short it's hardly worth the bother so I don't pin my colours to the mast of either .

Once you step away from the tribalism it's really not that hard to see the game .

[SydneyRover]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .

The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .

A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .

I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .

The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.

I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .

Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.

What completely passes you by is your Utopia isn't my Utopia Sydney .

The truth is as far as I'm concerned is that it's like asking me to chose between losing six nil under the Tories or losing five nil under  the present Labour Party .

In short it's hardly worth the bother so I don't pin my colours to the mast of either .

Once you step away from the tribalism it's really not that hard to see the game .

So after years of listening to this, the result is you, Tyke the political scientist can't tell the difference between labour and tories.

You need to find another hobby, you suck at politics.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.

Indeed, how much of it though is a criticism of Boris Johnson rather than the parties themselves.  Labour had similar sized leads just 6 months prior to the last election remember.

More news about the so called quiz/party tomorrow so that won't help him.  I don't think in isolation there's much actually wrong with that, but it won't help a pm who's had a totally bad number of errors and poor control.

[tyke1962]

Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus

The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .

The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .

A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .

I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .

The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.

I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .

Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.

What completely passes you by is your Utopia isn't my Utopia Sydney .

The truth is as far as I'm concerned is that it's like asking me to chose between losing six nil under the Tories or losing five nil under  the present Labour Party .

In short it's hardly worth the bother so I don't pin my colours to the mast of either .

Once you step away from the tribalism it's really not that hard to see the game .

So after years of listening to this, the result is you, Tyke the political scientist can't tell the difference between labour and tories.

You need to find another hobby, you suck at politics.

I've only lived a life Sydney and go with that experience .

My principles are all I have and they aren't for sale and I will die one day as we all will and that I stuck to rightly or wrongly to what I believed in .

It sits fine with me which to honest is the only conversation worthy .

You are perfectly entitled to remove the members of your favourite band but when they play the same music its probably a bit of fools gold .

But you suit yourself .

[tyke1962]

Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.

Indeed, how much of it though is a criticism of Boris Johnson rather than the parties themselves.  Labour had similar sized leads just 6 months prior to the last election remember.

More news about the so called quiz/party tomorrow so that won't help him.  I don't think in isolation there's much actually wrong with that, but it won't help a pm who's had a totally bad number of errors and poor control.

What escapes the Labour Party is that whilst John Major's government was sleazy he wasn't .

That's a significant break from history given Starmer isn't Blair and hasn't a vision or a brand that offers the country an alternative .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.

Indeed, how much of it though is a criticism of Boris Johnson rather than the parties themselves.  Labour had similar sized leads just 6 months prior to the last election remember.

More news about the so called quiz/party tomorrow so that won't help him.  I don't think in isolation there's much actually wrong with that, but it won't help a pm who's had a totally bad number of errors and poor control.

A lot happened in the last 6 months before the lady election. I predicted that Labour were in big trouble because there was no way they could unify over Brexit, while the Tories could easily by electing Johnson.

Of course there's a long way to the next one. The point about the current polls is they show how profoundly people have lost faith with Johnson. Despite some folk thinking Sunak would turn that around, that remains to be seen. And as I've said before, there's not a huge amount of obvious good news coming for the Govt in the medium future.

We'll see.

[drfchound]

We have all seen how the polls have proven to be wrong in the past.
If a downwards trend continues then the Tories will remove Johnson from his post, appoint Sunak as the new PM.
Those who believe that the polls are the gospel will see things rapidly change but probably won’t post about it.

[Filo]

To me that broadcast earlier was the last roll of the dice from a man that knows the game is up for him, Thursdays by election should seal his fate

[SydneyRover]

It's telling that there was no erm erm wiff waff going on

[normal rules]

That to me looked like a serious Boris.
Which is a first.
Summat has him worried.
And I don’t think it’s Xmas parties.

[albie]

BST,

"The Tory party IS in disarray. There's talk of 100 head bangers voting against the Govt this week.

Labour has nothing to gain by siding with them. The most important thing is that it would send the wrong message to the country at a time it needs people to be disciplined and sensible again. It's vital that the swivel eyed loons on the far right of the Tory party are put in their boxes over this.

But just on the party politics, when Omicron runs out of control, imagine Johnson pointing at Starmer and saying "you refused to vote to get this under control."

It would be idiotic for Labour not to vote with the Govt, both morally and self-interestedly."

Billy,

Your last sentence does not make sense after what you said before.
What you suggest is a major error of political strategy.

Labour should be loud about the failings of Plan B, and make the debate about the most effective measures to bring in now.

Signing up to a plan that keeps hospitality open while infections are doubling every 2 days is completely irrational. Tories will just say that you fully supported this plan when it fails badly, as it will.

Starmer has the chance to press Bozo to support additional measures, including financial support for hospitality businesses which need to close temporarily.
He needs to make sure that trade union members interests are supported throughout the epidemic.

Get on the right side of the argument, and stay there.
The problem is that Starmer has no policy of his own, on anything really.

He tends to conservative opportunistic positions, and has no clear public interest story to tell.
That story is there, waiting to be used.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

As I said before, you're being way too subtle.

If Labour don't support these measures, when the Omricron wave breaks, the Tories won't say "Ah yes. You were right. Plan B wasn't enough." They will beat Labour over the head for not supporting the moves. And we can see in here how successful the Captain Hindsight jibe is, even though it has zero substance.

Why give the Tories that free hit?

[albie]

BST,

You know very well, deep down, that Starmer is making a mistake due to a complete lack of political nous.
Admitting it would be embarrassing, so keep up appearances eh!

What Labour are about to support is going to put NHS staff, and other front facing service workers, at greater risk than would be the case with additional measures.

That much is obvious, but Keith is so risk averse he just can't take a chance on an ethical position.
So he backs Boris with loony Plan B in the vote, and then calls on Tory MP's to get rid of the clown because he is unfit for office.

Join the dots on those 2 positions, then search for integrity.
Not good, is it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Probably pointless saying it, but I do actually write what I think. Even when talking to someone who uses stupid insult names for politicians, indicating that he'd not agree with him over what 2 plus 2 equalled.

The real delusion here is thinking that anything Labour do would change Govt policy for the better.

Frankly, your implication that Labour are in any way responsible for the impending disaster is disgraceful. But not surprising coming from a position where you would criticise Starmer if he found the key to world peace and a cure for cancer, because he's not St Jeremy the Immaculate.

[albie]

BST,

Oh dear....more irrelevant nonsense to bury the issue.
Anything to avoid the point.

Nobody is saying Labour will change Tory policy, the only people who can do that are the Tories themselves.
What Labour can do is put an alternative forward, to change the nature of the debate.

Starmer continually accepts the Tory definition of an issue, then looks to position inside that narrative.
That means that you have surrendered the terms of the discussion, and are reacting to that framework, rather than shaping it.
It is called the Overton window, in media speak.

What I look for is a policy position that is based on socialist first principles.
It is not the role of Labour to be Tory lite, tweaking around the edges.   

"Frankly, your implication that Labour are in any way responsible for the impending disaster is disgraceful."....this is only in your imagination.

Labour are NOT responsible in any way for the position created by Tory mismanagement.
They are fully responsible for the failure to develop a different story, one which reflects the interests of the trade unions and Labour supporters.

Starmer deserves to be criticised when he abandons the pledges he made to get elected, then replaces them with nothing of substance. He is falling short.

[normal rules]

Plan B could be irrelevant in a week or two. If the streets of London on Friday and Sat were anything to go by. They were absolutely rammed . So much so, they had to shut the gates to stop people trying to get on the tube at Oxford Circus, Leicester sq and Piccadilly Circus due to overcrowding sat teatime. Plus it was mild and wet. Perfect conditions for virus spreading. Mask wearing was sparse also.
Lockdown next I feel.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST,

Oh dear....more irrelevant nonsense to bury the issue.
Anything to avoid the point.

Nobody is saying Labour will change Tory policy, the only people who can do that are the Tories themselves.
What Labour can do is put an alternative forward, to change the nature of the debate.

Starmer continually accepts the Tory definition of an issue, then looks to position inside that narrative.
That means that you have surrendered the terms of the discussion, and are reacting to that framework, rather than shaping it.
It is called the Overton window, in media speak.

What I look for is a policy position that is based on socialist first principles.
It is not the role of Labour to be Tory lite, tweaking around the edges.   

"Frankly, your implication that Labour are in any way responsible for the impending disaster is disgraceful."....this is only in your imagination.

Labour are NOT responsible in any way for the position created by Tory mismanagement.
They are fully responsible for the failure to develop a different story, one which reflects the interests of the trade unions and Labour supporters.

Starmer deserves to be criticised when he abandons the pledges he made to get elected, then replaces them with nothing of substance. He is falling short.

Albie

You have a strange concept of how political dynamics work.


Labour aren't going to change any dynamic on this. Positions are too firmly entrenched.

Look at this time last year. Starmer was absolutely on the money, repeatedly pointing out that the Govt was behind the curve.

Johnson hit him with accusations of wanting lockdown.

We got lockdown. Too late. 75,000 people died.

And the political result? Starmer was labelled Captain Hindsight. His poll ratings  slumped and Labour fell behind the Tories. THAT was the result of trying to lead the dynamic.

Be honest. You're going to criticise Starmer whatever he does aren't you? Especially with Labour stretching ahead in the polls. The Corbynista Left is facing its worst nightmare and has to pile onto Starmer.

[albie]

Billy,

What a council of despair.....Labour can't change the debate, so don't try, that is the size of it for you.
Stay within the box allocated to you, doff your cap to the masters!

I have a good handle on political dynamics, Billy, with many years experience in a number of related roles.

Your misunderstanding of polls leads you up the garden path again.
Once more, they tell you only of a general disquiet with Johnson, nothing more.

It is common in mid term to indicate a general unhappiness by witholding consent, it does not map directly into voting actions in 2 years time. No-one with a background in polling would claim that.

New leader, clean sweep......polls revert.

You seem obsessed with "Corbynistas", for some reason. Corbyn has gone.
Starmer stood on a platform supporting key policies, which he has discarded. He is a fraud.

Once again, what really matters are the policies.
It helps if the person fronting the party has a personality and a clear political identity.
The personal polling for Starmer suggests he has not cut through on either of these factors.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Starmer has higher personal approval ratings that Corbyn ever did at ANY time in his reign. And yet you laud Corbyn's election performance in 2017.

I suggest you fundamentally misunderstand the dynamics of Opposition.

Opposition parties don't control the agenda. Opposition parties only EVER win because of the incompetence of the Government. The role of Opposition parties is not to set out, years in advance, detailed policies. No Opposition party ever does that. The role is to play mood music. To set themselves up as the antithesis of the problems the Govt has.

So Thatcher didn't say in 1976 that she'd implement policies that would result in 15% interest rates and 4million on the dole. She just repeatedly pointed out Labour's problems with inflation, unemployment and the Unions.

Blair didn't give a detailed policy list in 1994. He set himself up as fresh, dynamic and in control against a Tory party that was ripping itself apart.

Cameron didn't say in 2008 that they would introduce voodoo economic policies that would give us the worst decade of growth for 200 years. He sat on the sidelines and sniped at Brown about the debt. Relentlessly.

Opposition isn't about detail. It's absolutely not about detailed policy. It is about determining the existential weakness of the Govt and showing that you are strong on that theme.

And the existential threat to this Govt, whoever leads it, is that they stink of dishonesty and entitlement. Starmer doesn't win by his tax plans or his plans for homelessness. He wins by being the antithesis of Johnson's cabal. And THEN you can implement policies to make the changes that need to be made.

That's the bit that the Left never get. They are so passionate for their policies, they never understand that the overwhelming majority of the electorate don't share that. And that by concentrating on policies, when a Govt is deeply unpopular, you give the Govt a rope to pull themselves out. By changing the terms of the debate.

What Starmer needs to do on the Plan B topic is to not give Johnson a "You refused to support us when we could have defeated Omicron" line. Labour won't change Govt policy by abstaining. They only leave themselves open to accusations of dithering or worse. So there is simply nothing positive to come out of abstaining for Starmer.

Which of course, many on the Left wouldn't shed tears over.

[normal rules]

Ks will be starring in his very own public address tonight at 7pm on bbc.
A United front perhaps. .?

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's an obvious line for Starmer which combines doing the right thing for the country, with party self-interest.

He has to say that he understands why people wouldn't trust Johnson, but that this isn't about Johnson's trustworthiness. This is about the underlying science. And it is vital that people get their jabs and be careful.

He should say that Plan B will not be enough, but Labour will vote for it because of the message that opposing it would send.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Re: Starmer isn't cutting through.

https://mobile.twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1470334851689627650

[albie]

Billy,

Johnson is not going to be Tory leader at the election....what is it about that you don't understand.

"Doing the right thing for the country", err, supporting people going to Xmas parties, going to the pub without a mask, not offering financial support to those wanting to do the right thing.

The underlying science does not support any of this. Read the papers to government from the public health community.

Jesus wept!
Is this the best you can do.