Should Starmer Resign?

[Bentley Bullet]

Is Beergate a smear campaign?

Sir Keir thinks so.

[drfchound]

If they had only been drinking mineral water then it would not have been an extended social gathering.

If it had only been mineral water then people would have been less likely to engage in close contact.

It's difficult to party on water.

It wouldn't be conclusive but it would change things, don't you think?

I don’t know whether having beer makes it an extended social gathering or not but going from what you are suggesting then it is cut and dried that in Starmers case, it was a social gathering  because he was drinking a beer.
Agreed?

[River Don]

If they had only been drinking mineral water then it would not have been an extended social gathering.

If it had only been mineral water then people would have been less likely to engage in close contact.

It's difficult to party on water.

It wouldn't be conclusive but it would change things, don't you think?

I don’t know whether having beer makes it an extended social gathering or not but going from what you are suggesting then it is cut and dried that in Starmers case, it was a social gathering  because he was drinking a beer.
Agreed?

Not agreed because apparently it was only one small bottle of beer and drinking alcohol with a meal is not against the rules.

[River Don]

There is a difference between a drinks party and half a larger with a curry.

[bpoolrover]

There is a difference between a drinks party and half a larger with a curry.

you were not allowed round peoples houses to have half a lager and a curry thou, is it any different at work?  Most normal people would not have done that

[BillyStubbsTears]

Is Beergate a smear campaign?

Sir Keir thinks so.

We will know when the police finish their investigation.

But consider the prima facie evidence that we knew of at the start of both police inquiries.

1) The No10 cases. We knew for facts before the police investigations started:
-There were over a dozen events.
- At at least 1, a round robin email had gone out specifically inviting people not in No10 to come to No10 specifically for a party.
-At another, the PMs wife and her interior designer were present.
- Johnson claimed to have no knowledge of any of this being against the rules. Crucially, he claimed that IN PARLIAMENT.
- Johnson's hand picked media staff were videoed cracking jokes a out how they would handle press stories about parties at No10 WAY before there was any interest in these parties in the press or in Parliament, suggesting very strongly that they knew the rules had been broken.

Of course we now know that the law was broken. Anyone putting their balls on the line 5 months ago and saying the evidence pointed to a breach of the law has been vindicated.

2) In the case of Starmer's situation, we know for a fact:

-There is a single event under consideration.
- He was at a perfectly legal political campaigning meeting 250 miles from home.
- He and presumably several other staff were staying overnight in a hotel that didn't serve food.
- They ordered a curry and drinks at the place where they had been working all day.
-There is no evidence at all that anyone attended specifically to eat curry and have a beer, having not been involved in the work previously. 

The question of any breach of the law seems to me to revolve around whether it was reasonable for the people who had been working together all day to conclude that day with food and a drink, or whether the law compelled them to go back to wherever they were spending the night and eat alone.

We will see what the outcome is. If the investigation finds him guilty, he has to resign and he will, or he'll be forced out by the Party. If the investigation finds him not guilty, I assume some folk in here will be apolo....nah, only joking. If course they won't.

[SydneyRover]

And of course the inquiry into johnson and Arcuri has still to be concluded.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound seems to think that after a 12 hour day working together, much of it in the same room, folk should have gone back to their own hotel rooms to eat, then come back to continue the work.

The contorted logic of people desperate to find an equivalence is quite something to behold.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

I'm sure you've been following this carefully. You know that event in Downing Street where someone took a photo from Sunak's office of the No19 staff out in the garden drinking?

You DO know that the Met decided there was no breach of the law in that case. Because they were all working together, and stopping to have a drink wasn't considered to be a social event.

Given that wasn't a breach of the law, why are you so certain that Starmer broke the law?

[River Don]

There is a difference between a drinks party and half a larger with a curry.

you were not allowed round peoples houses to have half a lager and a curry thou, is it any different at work?  Most normal people would not have done that

Well yes it is different. Different periods of the crisis different restrictions.

Basically it's a case of just following the rules.

[DonnyOsmond]

There is a difference between a drinks party and half a larger with a curry.

you were not allowed round peoples houses to have half a lager and a curry thou, is it any different at work?  Most normal people would not have done that

People still went into offices during the pandemic because they had to, and during the time they were in they potentially had lunch and I'm sure Covid wouldn't have changed its mind whether it infected those people based on what kind of beverage they were having with their meal.

[SydneyRover]

So from the squealing and outcry for justice there should be around 47 resignations to go from the government side plus any others that are given a fpn

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think the number of people who want a leader who breaks the law is tiny.  People also don't want someone who criticises others, wants tighter restrictions and then may have broken them aswell.

[drfchound]

Hound seems to think that after a 12 hour day working together, much of it in the same room, folk should have gone back to their own hotel rooms to eat, then come back to continue the work.

The contorted logic of people desperate to find an equivalence is quite something to behold.

That first paragraph is another lie by you bst, and you know it.
I challenge you to show where I have said that.
In your own time of course.

[phil old leake]

Starmer might actually look a bigger fool than Johnson if Durham decide to issue a Fixed Penalty and it is an if

Playing the resignation card constantly whether right or wrong whether people agree or disagree with him about Johnson he’s put himself in a corner

It doesn’t really matter what Johnson does or has done. If Durham decide Starmer has now broken lockdown rules he will look a real hypocrite and lose all credibility if he doesn’t follow his own advice.

Irrelevant of Johnson how does he not follow his own advice/suggestions of the right thing to do.

Saying I’m not resigning because he didn’t won’t wash. It would just put him in the same boat.

I know there are some differences about the situations and some on here will support Starmer and are 100% against the Tories

I’m not writing this in support Johnson I’d be saying this if it was the other way around

[River Don]

If Starmer is fined, then he's got to go, hoist by his own petard.

But if he did resign that would pile yet more pressure on Johnson to do the same.

[River Don]

Right now, knowing what we know, I still think Starmer will be cleared.

£200 doesn't pay for 30 people to party into the early hours.

The students who filmed the event say they saw a number of people socialising for 45mins. That's about as long as it takes to eat a meal. It still tally's with Starmers version of events.

[Bentley Bullet]

Johnson was found guilty of breaking restriction rules  and was subsequently fined. If Starmer is found guilty he should also be fined. However, whether Starmer should resign because of him proving to be a hypocrite is another matter.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.

Johnson also lied to the House.

You are on record as saying you don't think he should resign.

Yet here you are hypothesising over whether Starmer should resign for a situation that in all likelihood will not happen.

You are going to look even more of a biassed idiot than you already do if Starmer is cleared. And given that the police have already set a precedent that eating drinking alcohol with people you spent all day with at a workplace, in a break from work wasn't breaking the law, I'm struggling to see how there is any case for Starmer to answer.

If Starmer is found guilty, I think he should resign and I think I should apologise for having supported him.

What do you think you should do if he isn't?

[Bentley Bullet]

BST

Johnson lied to the house IN YOUR OPINION. Why should he resign just because a politically twisted and biased person like you says he should?

Starmer shouldn't even wait for a verdict, after all, he argued that being under investigation alone is grounds for Boris Johnson's resignation, so why hasn't he resigned?

[BillyStubbsTears]

You are an embarrassment BB. I genuinely try to have grown up discussions with you but it's impossible. You are a perfect example of why the Chinese think that democracy is dated to collapse.

[Sprotyrover]

Starter has painted himself into a corner,it's a credibility issue now!

[Bentley Bullet]

You are an embarrassment BB. I genuinely try to have grown up discussions with you but it's impossible. You are a perfect example of why the Chinese think that democracy is dated to collapse.

You are trying to cover your own embarrassment, BST. You don't answer questions because you can't, without embarrassing yourself. That is why you deviate all the time.

Now, I'll reiterate what I suggested last night. Get back to me when you're ready to rid yourself of the bullshit and answer some questions for a change.

[belton rover]

You are an embarrassment BB. I genuinely try to have grown up discussions with you but it's impossible. You are a perfect example of why the Chinese think that democracy is dated to collapse.

An embarrassment to who?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
I used to think you were a very committed WUM. I actually think now that you believe what you say. You believe it when Starmer makes one mistake and says something incorrect in the House, then corrects it within hours, that you are justified in saying Starmer is a liar just like Johnson. You believe it when you say Johnson didn't lie in the House over the parties, when even his closest media spin doctors were laughing about how they would deal with questions about parties that he attended. I think you actually do believe in this false equivalence you throw up.

You're pitiful.

[Branton Red]

This all hinges on whether the people in that office continued to work after the meal/drinks were consumed.

If they did that's fine - there was nothing in the rules stating you couldn't pause work to eat at your workplace.

If they stopped work then enjoyed a meal/drink together afterwards before leaving then that is socialising and they broke the rules.

It should be easy to produce evidence of innocence here to provide to the police and public to kill this story. E-mails sent, computer files saved, CCTV of people leaving etc. - timed well after the time of the video/time on the receipt for the food (which would have been saved for an expense claim).

The failure of the Labour Party to produce such evidence together with the time of the video, the presence of alcohol and the number of people still in the office so late is highly suggestive, but not proof, of guilt.

[Bentley Bullet]

I don't want, nor need your pity, BST, besides, when you're ready to rid yourself of the bullshit and answer some questions you'll need all the pity you can muster for yourself.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton
 Have you ever been involved in campaigning during an election?

I have. Numerous times. There are often peoole working at HQ until well after midnight.

And that's without having the LotO and his team present, who had a lot more to deal with than just the campaigning.

And it's NOT a case of whether they continued working after the food. There is the (strong?) possibility that they were working while having the food (and the drink). Discussing whatever issues had come up during the day, and what needed to be done the next day.

I don't know if that's what happened. But I know from experience that there's no much partying goes on during campaigning. What there is is a shed load of bloody hard work and late nights.

Which makes me veer towards the event being, at worst, a working wind down.

Now, I may be wrong. Maybe they were having a right old knees up. In which case, if evidence of such comes out, unquestionably, Starmer should and will be toast.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't want, nor need your pity, BST, besides, when you're ready to rid yourself of the bullshit and answer some questions you'll need all the pity you can muster for yourself.

BB
I don't see any sense in engaging anymore with someone so partisan that they cannot even use words to mean what they mean. When you finally come to realise how stupid it makes you seem, come and have a chat. Until then, I'll confine myself to pointing out your errors. There's no point arguing in good faith with you because you don't understand the concept of arguing in good faith.

[Bentley Bullet]

You are an embarrassment BB. I genuinely try to have grown up discussions with you but it's impossible. You are a perfect example of why the Chinese think that democracy is dated to collapse.

An embarrassment to who?

Exactly, Belton!