Gas Prices

[albie]

If you ever needed a further reason to see why energy utilities should be in public hands, here it is:
https://www.ft.com/content/0ebf0cf1-af77-4670-90d6-ec060fd94f66

Centrica (British Gas) and the government dancing with each other over subsidy (ie bribes) to do what is clearly necessary and increase storage capacity.

So next winter the UK will rely on more expensive LPG imports, and fuel poverty will continue into the future.

This is the system both the blue tories and the red tories think is fit for purpose, and which they are keen to retain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Get your Far Left 2024 Election Bingo Cards ready folks.

"Red Tories" is a dead cert to be called out regularly.

[albie]

Nothing to say to the issue, BST?

Just the usual bleats and slurs, surprised you did not mention Corbyn, as you have an unhealthy obsession with the former Labour leader.

Now, from the point of view of an extreme centrist, tell us how this fiasco is going to be sorted without public ownership, which Keith and Reeves have sidelined?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

There's simply no point discussing anything with someone who lazily uses the term "Red Tory" and refuses to accept that it was precisely that mindset that gave us the Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss, Sunak Govts and the resulting horrific energy policy of the last 13 years.

Take some responsibility for what your idle insults lead to, then may e we can talk.

[albie]

OK, BST.

You have no answer to the issue because you know Keith and Reeves are ski-ing off piste, but you are too loyal to team Keith and neoliberal ideas to admit it.

I am sorry if you think Red Tory is not accurate, but I think it is.
Blue Labour is an option, does the cap fit?

Keithism has nothing to say on structural reform, where problems created by previous mistakes require major intervention.
The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed.

The type of thinking that led to the defeat in 2010 was actually moving into the space dominated by Tory ideas.

The "energy policy of the last 13 years" suggests you think the current situation is only a Tory creation....in actual fact New Labour were supportive of the privatisation of key utilities, and did nothing to correct the situation when in power.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The New Labour that you despise were actually in power and able, for example, to get green energy up and running, before Osborne throttled it.

You don't see a difference between New Labour and what came after it. Which makes any discussion pointless.

[tyke1962]

OK, BST.

You have no answer to the issue because you know Keith and Reeves are ski-ing off piste, but you are too loyal to team Keith and neoliberal ideas to admit it.

I am sorry if you think Red Tory is not accurate, but I think it is.
Blue Labour is an option, does the cap fit?

Keithism has nothing to say on structural reform, where problems created by previous mistakes require major intervention.
The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed.

The type of thinking that led to the defeat in 2010 was actually moving into the space dominated by Tory ideas.

The "energy policy of the last 13 years" suggests you think the current situation is only a Tory creation....in actual fact New Labour were supportive of the privatisation of key utilities, and did nothing to correct the situation when in power.

Streeting can't wait to further privatise the NHS , it's only temporary folks ...... Honest it is .

Go feck yourself Streeting if you think that's going to fly with folks like me .

If your short of ideas in a difficult climate  you little shyte then take your vision from Clem Attlee not that war criminal Blair .

[SydneyRover]

''The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed''

Of course it can Albie but not from opposition, reconstruction needs time to change the public's thinking with a period in govt' to stop the decline and gain trust then maybe in a second term put the reconstruction to the people otherwise you will be told you don't have a mandate.

Please explain how you would get elected achieve reconstruction Albie in one term.

[BobG]

When the appointed intelligence agencies if the UK are unamimous that Iraq contained weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a certifiable lunatic.x what would you have a British Prime Minister do Tyke???

BobG

[tyke1962]

''The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed''

Of course it can Albie but not from opposition, reconstruction needs time to change the public's thinking with a period in govt' to stop the decline and gain trust then maybe in a second term put the reconstruction to the people otherwise you will be told you don't have a mandate.

Please explain how you would get elected achieve reconstruction Albie in one term.

When elected to government Labour aren't going to do what you think they will do Sydney .

I get your stance on getting elected but it's my opinion your going to be let down massively by Keith along with millions of others .

In fact I'll go as far as to say the next Labour government will be its last in its present form .

For what it's worth the Tories are likely to be facing the same issue but will probably survive .

You'd better hope Keith proves me wrong because if Labour can't fix this your done for and your a long time dead .

[tyke1962]

When the appointed intelligence agencies if the UK are unamimous that Iraq contained weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a certifiable lunatic.x what would you have a British Prime Minister do Tyke???

BobG

Your falling for that one are you Bob ? , the lone gunman theory complete with a grassy knoll thrown in .

Nowt to do with Bush spoiling for a war then following getting his ass handed to him on 9/11 .

Blair was told in no uncertainties terms by our own experts on the consequences of invading Iraq and what the aftermath would be .

He decided to be Bush's bitch .

[Branton Red]

Other than Blair himself that's the first time I've seen or heard anyone arguing in favour of the invasion of Iraq in over a decade and a half.

Takes all sorts I suppose.

[BobG]

Don't know where you got grassy knolls from. I take it though that you are,  and were, in favour of leaving WMD in the hands of a complete maniac with a penchant for killing.  Fair enough. It explains quite a bit.

BobG

[drfchound]

When the appointed intelligence agencies if the UK are unamimous that Iraq contained weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a certifiable lunatic.x what would you have a British Prime Minister do Tyke???

BobG

Bob, I would think you wouldn’t have written that had the PM at that time been a Tory.

[albie]

Syd,

Renationalising energy (and water) is very popular, even with Tory voters, so it is pushing at an open door for Labour.
https://weownit.org.uk/blog/biggest-ever-poll-shows-huge-support-nationalisation

Labour do not need to prepare the ground of public opinion, it is already in place.
Timid Keith is creating complexity when simplicity is available.

All governments have greater flexibility to act in the first 2 years in power, but Keith has not made any statement of intent for this crucial period.

BST seems to think green energy was central to New Labour in power, but I am unaware of the data to support that.
Very little additional progress to that caused by price reductions can be shown.

I agree with Sharon Graham in this interview;
https://twitter.com/i/status/1622188177774501895

[SydneyRover]

You well know my views on this, where I have offered reasoning, whereas you are not answering a direct question with a direct answer.

[ncRover]

How many sectors would you nationalise Albie?

[albie]

ncRover,

Rail, Water and Energy at the earliest opportunity.

All of these are a cash cow for shareholders, with declining service provision for consumers.
How do I change Water supplier if I am unhappy with prices and sewage discharges?

None of these industries are working in the private sector, and the general public agree that they should be in public hands (including Tory voters).

[BillyStubbsTears]

For the record, I entirely agree with that Albie.

But I also do understand Labour's reticence for political reasons.

Those policies are popular NOW. The danget comes when Labour embraces them and gives the Tory party a line to argue ("Same old Big Govt Labour" "Look how shit the trains were in the 1970s" "Bloated state" etc, etc). I'd put good money on the Tories, with their media backers behind them, using that to very good effect to draw support back to them, regardless of the actual merits of the case.

Labour has to get and hold power for 20 years if it is really going to make a difference. The first part of that, the "getting" power is a pre-requisite to everything. Which The Left has never truly understood.

[tyke1962]

Don't know where you got grassy knolls from. I take it though that you are,  and were, in favour of leaving WMD in the hands of a complete maniac with a penchant for killing.  Fair enough. It explains quite a bit.

BobG

You can't connect so called intelligence and then not finding any WMD Bob .

How is that actually possible with the tech and resources available to the US and many Iraqi's no doubt more than willing to flip to the US for the right price or even just to save themselves .

Blair was played and Bush wanted a war .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bush was always going to have a war. Nothing Blair could have done would have prevented that.

[danumdon]

Bush was always going to have a war. Nothing Blair could have done would have prevented that.

I think Bush made it very clear at the time that his war mongering was "a coalition of the willing" i'm quite sure that Just like when Cameron could not supply the backing for Obama to go to war in Syria, Bush would of had to have second thoughts if Blair had not covered him !00%

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bush was going in regardless. Certainly having British support helped him, but the lack of it wouldn't have stopped him.

I think it was a horrific mistake by Blair and I left the Labour party and votes against it at a GE as a result. But there's a lot of nonsense passed off as fact on this topic by folk with a political axe to grind.
 

[SydneyRover]

''Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback
Fossil fuel industry groups say the technology isn’t ideal for the state’s climate. Mainers aren’t buying it''

''VAN BUREN, Maine — The video starts with a Maine radio show host dressed in a bright red jumpsuit walking through the snow to a stranger’s door and delighting her with an offer of free heating oil. “My name’s Blake, we’re from Maine Energy Facts and we want to fill up your oil — it’s on us!” he says at another stop, where a woman thanks him profusely as she cradles her baby.

Funded by a heating oil industry group, the “Fuel Your Love” promotional campaign has a feel-good touch, but it directs viewers to a website dispensing home heating advice that is peppered with overwhelmingly negative, and sometimes misleading, claims about electric-powered heat pumps, saying they “are simply not ideal for climates like ours.”

The message doesn’t seem to be working. Mainers are embracing heat pumps — boxy machines that function like reverse air conditioners, combining heating and cooling systems in a single unit. In a state where winter is long and chilling, and exorbitant oil and gas prices have motivated people to switch, crews have installed tens of thousands of heat pumps, prompting the fossil fuel industry to step up its efforts to beat back the trend ......... ''

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/02/07/maine-gas-industry-heat-pumps/

[albie]

There are 2 key issues on gas prices for next winter.

1) Increase gas storage capacity at Rough to give a buffer in a colder winter.
2) Decouple electricity prices from wholesale gas prices.

Issue 1 is set out in the FT link I posted at the top of the page.
No-one has said how they think this stand off should be sorted.

Issue 2 is still in place, even though the UK is reducing the production of electricity from gas, as new renewables come on stream.

About 44% of UK leccy was derived from gas, but that will fall further, so why is electricity priced at the cost of the most expensive source, not the mean cost of inputs?

[BillyStubbsTears]

On issue 2 Albie, it truly is a bizarre system. I assume there was some logic to it at some point but I'm blowed if I can figure out what that was.

[albie]

Bare bones explainer from the BBC on the consumer rip off of locking electricity to gas prices:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64471262

This could be changed by government easily.....so why the delay?

[danumdon]

Same reason as everything else going off at this time i suppose, people and organisations making a killing out of this will be very appreciative to the current people in charge!

[ncRover]

ncRover,

Rail, Water and Energy at the earliest opportunity.

All of these are a cash cow for shareholders, with declining service provision for consumers.
How do I change Water supplier if I am unhappy with prices and sewage discharges?

None of these industries are working in the private sector, and the general public agree that they should be in public hands (including Tory voters).

It’s well known that publicly run services become less cost efficient over time. Is there evidence that public ownership would give the taxpayer better value for money?

People point to bp profits and demand more tax on them, but they were at a £18bn loss in 2020. Has this in part lead to price increases along with the Ukraine war? Or how about an uncertain future due to western governments wanting to come away from fossil fuels? Are they protecting against past and future losses?

If they make more profits, they pay more tax. The current left-wing populist movement tricks some in to believing they pay no tax at all.

If we benefit from their profits more (with a windfall tax) should we also suffer the consequences of their losses too? Or do you think there are no trade offs here in a proposed idealistic situation?

Not claiming to know it all just curious.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Away from the politics, the futures price of gas is still coming down rapidly.

Currently at the lowest price for 18 months and still falling.

I heard Martin Lewis on the radio discussing this last night. Because these are FUTURES prices, there' a 6 month or so lag between the price changing sand this being reflected in our bills. But he expects by late summer that the average household gas and  electric bill will be down to £2100, down from the (capped) current level of £2500, and the uncapped value of ~£5000.