The new car tax. Road Pricing. It’s coming.

[normal rules]

There are increasing levels of reporting of changes to car tax being considered by the transport secretary.
Increasing levels of EV is leaving a massive black hole in revenue.
It was always going to happen.
The last time it was mentioned in 2015 there was a petition which got 1.8 million votes to poo poo it. But now the idea is seen by many as much less toxic.
It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
Live in London and drive little miles and you might be ok. But then there is the issue of congestion charge . Cities like Manchester, London and Birmingham have these already. If you live rural you are likely to travel more so you get penalised just because you live in the country.
Talk of tech being installed in cars to track mileage, which presents privacy issues.
This will be happening before 2030 I have no doubt.
Personally, I don’t know why they don’t just put a flat rate on all cars. Because there won’t be any new ICE cars from 2030. And if the govt want people to move to ev, they just make fossil fuel hyper expensive. Which I think will happen also.

[Axholme Lion]

Totally unfair. Live in a city with a well paid job and work from home, no tax.
Live in the sticks, not so well paid job, loads of miles just to live and you get hammered. Another master stroke. Why not just tax EVs the same as every other car?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Are you talking about replacing Car Excise Duty or Fuel Duty?

[SydneyRover]

the anarchist wants fairness?

[Glyn_Wigley]

the anarchist wants fairness?

'What would Enver do?'

[normal rules]

Are you talking about replacing Car Excise Duty or Fuel Duty?

Vehicle excise duty. Car tax. Ev owners pay zero currently.
The govt will, I have no doubt, impose a “pay per mile” type system. The more miles you cover, the more you pay. And some roads will be more expensive than others. Then they will introduce peak travel times, like they do on trains.
By the end of this decade, driving, if you commute distance, will become very, very expensive.
This will no doubt tie in with insurance also. The more miles you do, the more you pay. And you won’t be able to fudge this either if your car ends up with a tax mileage tracker in it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Vehicle Excise duty is simple, just make electric cars liable and carry on as now. You only have to adjust the banding, no capital investment spending needed. It's much cheaper to collect and administer.

What you replace the concomitant loss of fuel duty with is more complicated though.

[normal rules]

Vehicle Excise duty is simple, just make electric cars liable and carry on as now. You only have to adjust the banding, no capital investment spending needed. It's much cheaper to collect and administer.

What you replace the concomitant loss of fuel duty with is more complicated though.

Couldn’t agree more. The problem the govt have is taxing ev will prevent some from leaving ICE. In the short term.

[normal rules]

The answer of course is to keep a small,  low/zero tax car for as long as possible.
I have a Vw up and it is brilliant.

[selby]

  The tech is coming in this year with the EU speed monitoring on cars introduced  any new car will have the tech installed from this year it is an EU directive and  our government has said British manufacturers will also install the tech although the use of the tech will not be mandatory here at the moment.
 One thing that will effect the EV market is the stories of £15k and £17K to replace batteries after five or six years which will be more than the car is worth and the costs that will come in for the disposal of these spent batteries that is not a big problem at the moment but will become one.
    One state in the USA has put the cost of disposal at millions of dollars.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Vehicle Excise duty is simple, just make electric cars liable and carry on as now. You only have to adjust the banding, no capital investment spending needed. It's much cheaper to collect and administer.

What you replace the concomitant loss of fuel duty with is more complicated though.

Couldn’t agree more. The problem the govt have is taxing ev will prevent some from leaving ICE. In the short term.

Just increasing the ICE tax rate and keeping it significantly above the EV tax rate fixes that. At least until EV ownership starts outstripping ICE, when the banding will have to be looked at again.

[wilts rover]

Always seemed a fairer way of 'taxing'/getting revenue' from motorists to me. Why should I payexactly the same for my car, which is parked up most of the time, than someone who drives hundreds of miles a year?

Its the only mode of travel where you don't pay more the further you go.

[Superspy]

Always seemed a fairer way of 'taxing'/getting revenue' from motorists to me. Why should I payexactly the same for my car, which is parked up most of the time, than someone who drives hundreds of miles a year?

Its the only mode of travel where you don't pay more the further you go.

I'm inclined to agree. I always thought 'per mile' was a fairer way than the current system, because whilst I understand the different bands are polution based, that doesn't make sense to me once you look at use cases within each band..because a "high polluting" car that doesn't move, pays more in tax than a "low polluting" car that does 100 times as many miles.

[Axholme Lion]

Always seemed a fairer way of 'taxing'/getting revenue' from motorists to me. Why should I payexactly the same for my car, which is parked up most of the time, than someone who drives hundreds of miles a year?

Its the only mode of travel where you don't pay more the further you go.

So Joe Bloggs on a basic to average wage has a 40-50 mile per day commute gets taxed for going to work? It's insanity.

[albie]

Road pricing is a very good idea, so those who use the roads most pay the cost of that choice, and do not rely on others who do not to pay a disproportionate share.

The way to lower costs for drivers who need to travel is to move to an EV as soon as possible.
Here is a summary of unit costs for fuelling;
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/04/uk-drivers-cut-fuel-costs-69-switching-to-evs-from-petrol-diesel-cars/

Leasing makes sense if you cannot buy, with all costs included in the package, and warranty provided.

The point Selby makes about batteries is not correct.
New battery recycling facilities are under construction now, and recovery of battery materials will be a growing industry in the UK.

A new disassembly plant in Kent is included alongside the development of British Volt in Blyth.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/02/03/britishvolt-builds-recycling-plant-electric-car-batteries/

The idea that valuable components will not be recovered is completely ridiculous, and serious money is going into the sector.

[normal rules]

Always seemed a fairer way of 'taxing'/getting revenue' from motorists to me. Why should I payexactly the same for my car, which is parked up most of the time, than someone who drives hundreds of miles a year?

Its the only mode of travel where you don't pay more the further you go.

So Joe Bloggs on a basic to average wage has a 40-50 mile per day commute gets taxed for going to work? It's insanity.

Joe bloggs may need to think about living closer to where he works . I’m not trying to be clever here either AL.
My wife used to clock up over 700 work miles a month. I suppose she is lucky. She has a job where she can wfh. All meetings now done online. She now does zero miles a month . And it won’t be changing anytime soon. Covid has been a positive in that respect. Many many areas of work have been re invented. The habit of going to an office every day has changed. Across many industries.

[normal rules]

I won’t be buying an ev anytime soon though. It’s just not financially viable. Or practical.
Don’t do the miles to justify it.
I own two cheap cars outright having got out of the rat race that is PCPs. Just in time for covid also.
There may come a time where I have to, but it’s not yet.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The more it costs to collect a tax, the higher the tax has to be.

[selby]

Albie I never said they will not recover what they can from spent batteries, only that one state in America had stated the cost of disposal to them already, and the reported costs of £15 k plus labour charges of £200  an hour a customer was quoted to replace the batteries in an eight year old duel fuel Mercedes worth about £12k and the more widely reported cost of replacing batteries in a Tesla of 17k will do the second hand EV market no good at all.
   What do you think will be the repercussions in the second hand EV market will be in say 3 to 5 years? Do you think it will build confidence in people buying from new to lose big bucks? or have to pay out big bucks? would you buy a second hand EV?

[Axholme Lion]

Always seemed a fairer way of 'taxing'/getting revenue' from motorists to me. Why should I payexactly the same for my car, which is parked up most of the time, than someone who drives hundreds of miles a year?

Its the only mode of travel where you don't pay more the further you go.

So Joe Bloggs on a basic to average wage has a 40-50 mile per day commute gets taxed for going to work? It's insanity.

Joe bloggs may need to think about living closer to where he works . I’m not trying to be clever here either AL.
My wife used to clock up over 700 work miles a month. I suppose she is lucky. She has a job where she can wfh. All meetings now done online. She now does zero miles a month . And it won’t be changing anytime soon. Covid has been a positive in that respect. Many many areas of work have been re invented. The habit of going to an office every day has changed. Across many industries.

If you live in a rural area you have in most cases no choice but to travel for virtually everything. The idea of living in a town with all the masses of people and crime to me is horrific. It's nice to look over the fields and walk down the lanes on your door step. If i didn't have this and had to live amongst the crowds, anti social behaviour and crime i would in all seriousness consider ending it all.

[albie]

Selby,

We are not in America, so I don't see why the example you give is relevant.

As to the second hand market, it will be buyer beware as in the purchase of an ICE vehicle today.
What is the difference....you would check out the engine on a used vehicle before buying surely?

As I already said, leasing is going to be the new normal IMO.
As the sector is moving very quickly, it makes sense to look to upgrade on a shorter time scale than you would with an ICE vehicle.

Losing big bucks....well the best way to do that is to buy something for which spares are going to become harder to get at reasonable cost.

All the big players have moved on this, if you want to swim against the tide it will become more difficult for you.
No-one in the sector sees it playing out like you believe.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Always seemed a fairer way of 'taxing'/getting revenue' from motorists to me. Why should I payexactly the same for my car, which is parked up most of the time, than someone who drives hundreds of miles a year?

Its the only mode of travel where you don't pay more the further you go.

So Joe Bloggs on a basic to average wage has a 40-50 mile per day commute gets taxed for going to work? It's insanity.

Joe bloggs may need to think about living closer to where he works . I’m not trying to be clever here either AL.
My wife used to clock up over 700 work miles a month. I suppose she is lucky. She has a job where she can wfh. All meetings now done online. She now does zero miles a month . And it won’t be changing anytime soon. Covid has been a positive in that respect. Many many areas of work have been re invented. The habit of going to an office every day has changed. Across many industries.

If you live in a rural area you have in most cases no choice but to travel for virtually everything. The idea of living in a town with all the masses of people and crime to me is horrific. It's nice to look over the fields and walk down the lanes on your door step. If i didn't have this and had to live amongst the crowds, anti social behaviour and crime i would in all seriousness consider ending it all.

And that is exactly the reason why it costs more to live in the country. You pays your money you takes your choice.

[Axholme Lion]

Always seemed a fairer way of 'taxing'/getting revenue' from motorists to me. Why should I payexactly the same for my car, which is parked up most of the time, than someone who drives hundreds of miles a year?

Its the only mode of travel where you don't pay more the further you go.

So Joe Bloggs on a basic to average wage has a 40-50 mile per day commute gets taxed for going to work? It's insanity.

Joe bloggs may need to think about living closer to where he works . I’m not trying to be clever here either AL.
My wife used to clock up over 700 work miles a month. I suppose she is lucky. She has a job where she can wfh. All meetings now done online. She now does zero miles a month . And it won’t be changing anytime soon. Covid has been a positive in that respect. Many many areas of work have been re invented. The habit of going to an office every day has changed. Across many industries.

If you live in a rural area you have in most cases no choice but to travel for virtually everything. The idea of living in a town with all the masses of people and crime to me is horrific. It's nice to look over the fields and walk down the lanes on your door step. If i didn't have this and had to live amongst the crowds, anti social behaviour and crime i would in all seriousness consider ending it all.

And that is exactly the reason why it costs more to live in the country. You pays your money you takes your choice.

The thing is it's a myth that everyone in the country is loaded. It's just not the case. People live there because that's their home where they belong.

[River Don]

They could tax short journeys much more heavily, that would encourage more walking/cycling/public transport and not penalise those who have to make longer journeys so much.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

They could tax short journeys much more heavily, that would encourage more walking/cycling/public transport and not penalise those who have to make longer journeys so much.

You need to have the infrastructure for that though and it's just not there and it would be have to be a bloody big tax given most still need a car.

My journey is an example.  It would cost me something like £54 a month for the bus..
I have to walk to and from bus stops and the journey is about 45-50 minutes using two buses.

Currently I can drive it in less than 20 minutes and it costs me nothing (ev charging at work).

I could hack the cost, but it's the time.the buses take that is the problem and they are not comfy either.

[River Don]

Actually, with it being digital they could set all kinds of criteria for road tax. They could charge more for congested roads, they could charge more for city centres, they could charge more for busy times of day. They could charge more for bigger, heavier vehicles.

So Lord Sugar would pay a fortune to take his Rolls into the City for a 9.30 meeting where as Janet could drive from Askern to work in a little Suzuki at a care home in Goole for very little.

[River Don]

They could tax short journeys much more heavily, that would encourage more walking/cycling/public transport and not penalise those who have to make longer journeys so much.

You need to have the infrastructure for that though and it's just not there and it would be have to be a bloody big tax given most still need a car.

My journey is an example.  It would cost me something like £54 a month for the bus..
I have to walk to and from bus stops and the journey is about 45-50 minutes using two buses.

Currently I can drive it in less than 20 minutes and it costs me nothing (ev charging at work).

I could hack the cost, but it's the time.the buses take that is the problem and they are not comfy either.

Isn't the infrastructure pretty much in place? Mobile phones seem to know where ever you go already.

[normal rules]

They could tax short journeys much more heavily, that would encourage more walking/cycling/public transport and not penalise those who have to make longer journeys so much.

Agreed. Starting with the school run.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

They could tax short journeys much more heavily, that would encourage more walking/cycling/public transport and not penalise those who have to make longer journeys so much.

You need to have the infrastructure for that though and it's just not there and it would be have to be a bloody big tax given most still need a car.

My journey is an example.  It would cost me something like £54 a month for the bus..
I have to walk to and from bus stops and the journey is about 45-50 minutes using two buses.

Currently I can drive it in less than 20 minutes and it costs me nothing (ev charging at work).

I could hack the cost, but it's the time.the buses take that is the problem and they are not comfy either.

Isn't the infrastructure pretty much in place? Mobile phones seem to know where ever you go already.

I was more getting at the alternative options.  The public transport infrastructure outside London in this country is very poor.

[River Don]

They could tax short journeys much more heavily, that would encourage more walking/cycling/public transport and not penalise those who have to make longer journeys so much.

You need to have the infrastructure for that though and it's just not there and it would be have to be a bloody big tax given most still need a car.

My journey is an example.  It would cost me something like £54 a month for the bus..
I have to walk to and from bus stops and the journey is about 45-50 minutes using two buses.

Currently I can drive it in less than 20 minutes and it costs me nothing (ev charging at work).

I could hack the cost, but it's the time.the buses take that is the problem and they are not comfy either.

Isn't the infrastructure pretty much in place? Mobile phones seem to know where ever you go already.

I was more getting at the alternative options.  The public transport infrastructure outside London in this country is very poor.

Oh, I see what you mean.

I don't disagree with that but I'd imagine road tax would be cheaper in the north than London. 

I used to have to make an hour long journey on overland train and tube when I worked in Nottinghill. Driving in wasn't an option, horrific traffic and nowhere to park. There are some benefits to working in the north.