Efl show tonight . Discrimination.

[normal rules]

The EFL show rightly took time to highlight the issues at the Bolton game today.
It got me thinking what it is that makes people come out with mindless comments at football matches, or anywhere for that matter.

I’ve asked myself the question, have I genuinely met anyone in my life who is truly racist? I’m not sure. Possibly not. And I’ve spent 14 and a half years in the military and 22 yrs in the police.

When I was at school, people poked fun at the fat kid, the kid with glasses, the ginger kid, the kid that never got picked for the football team, the ugly kid, the kid with curly hair, the kid with the funny accent, the kid with funny eyes, the kid with darker skin, the kid that was Lilly white. The kid who’s parents had split up. Literally every single difference you could find between people.
Most kids  I know at school got poked fun at for one thing or another. Myself included. I was very short for my age group.

My point is this.
We notice differences in each other. And in the absence of any other knowledge about an individual, when you want to intimidate, poke fun or wind them up you choose the simplest obvious visible thing, What makes you different. I think this childish trait we learn at a very young age transcends into adulthood. Football is a tribal sport. We are, as supporters, by definition,  Tribal. We have differences. It’s a divisive activity. 
What football team you support.
What town you are born.
What size you are .
What hairstyle you have.

We’ve heard it all at the footy.
You fat bas**rd!
Gypo!
Where’s your Caravan?
Who’s the w**ker in the black?
Scab.
All of which goes  unnoticed to the MSM. And pundits alike.
And yet the mention of skin colour and all hell breaks loose.

Racism has no place in society or sport. No question.
But is racism present  in football or is it something else? Something less sinister?
As an example, consider what Ron Atkinson did some years ago, which cost him his job.
Is he racist? Or was his comment a mere objectification of an individual who just happened to have a differing colour skin to him? Had Ron Atkinson simply not grown up from his days in the playground.? He had nothing to offer in his repertoire other than to pick on his skin colour?

Before anyone points a finger of racism my way, might I add that I served along a number of black lads in the army who were and still are good friends of mine. I’m suggesting that some football supporters out there have not grown up at all and they poke the finger of abuse at people at the most basic of levels, like we did at school.. and they use skin colour differences in the same way as they would hair style or body shape. They are not racist per say,  they are just f**king stupid.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Very good piece, that, NR. I absolutely agree that there is something about low intelligence humans (very much applicable to young kids) that needs to identify The Other so as to cement one's own position in the hierarchy. Most of it is, relatively, harmless and balances out. A calls B fat. B calls A speccy. And most of that discrimination fades with intelligence and experience as, mostly, we realise that what unites us is greater than what separates us.

My take is that there is something qualitatively different about certain forms of discrimination and that is why they are still so sore today.

For example, no advanced society has tried to exterminate all ginger people. But 20th century Germany did try to exterminate all Jews. Which is why anti-Semitism is beyond the pale and far worse than calling someone ugly or fat.

Similarly, no advanced society has used the fact of some people being bald to argue that they are sub-human and therefore justify a centuries long policy of condoning industrial scales of exploitation through slavery. Which is why anti-black racism is rightly considered today to deserve a special level of disgust.

All discrimination is basically wrong. Some forms do deserve particular levels of societal disgust.

[SydneyRover]

Two very good comments although and because I have said it before if I don't repeat it, I will be labelled a hypocrite, the argument that because one has black friends or colleagues does not necessarily mean a person cannot be a racist, but I accept your word you are not NR and stress I have never read anything to the contrary.

education, education ,education and much work on unconscious bias.

no racism, no casual racism,

No bias in education, employment, government, anything.

A truism is that kids are not born racist, but how difficult is it to educate kids who's parents are. How do schools deal with a child that asks for or needs guidance without causing problems for the child at home.

[phil old leake]

All the above are well written.

There are genuinely racist people out there and that is abhorrent.

I agree with most of the above.  The things that I always feel is that if racism and equality is going to be called out on such a level as it is now then so be it

Let’s not be selective.  If everything around historical slavery is to be vilified then lets do it and not only aim it at a select group of people.  Let’s call out all the different races who sold their captives and in some cases their own people into slavery. Let’s call out all the races who would capture their enemies and enslave them.

Let’s not only aim criticism at a select few on podcasts and tv who have used the N word or other comment.

If people want to criticise people for their historic behaviour then ok be let’s do it across the board and call it all

Those people should also be demanding that the music of the likes of 50 cents be withdrawn from Spotify and other platforms for the use of racist language.

I was watching a film clip the other day with Will Smith and some other black actor who were supposedly grilling a young black boy at their door who had come to take one of their daughters out. They used the N word so many times when being aggressive towards the lad I lost count.  In today’s standards that film should be called out by the same people calling out all the historic tweets and emails. Will Smith and the other actor should be having to apologise to the world to save their careers. The same as all the rappers who have made a shed load of money by portraying gangsterism with the use of different aggressive racist language

If something is racist or abhorrent it isn’t less racist or abhorrent because of who says it. Aiming the criticism at a select group is in its self is racist and hateful

Why are some people immediately forgiven for their past indiscretions and others not

So many things are being called out for everything.  Is it really racist to identify a sole black male in a group of white males as the black bloke. The same as a sole white male in a group of black males as the white bloke Or the ginger bloke or the lad with glasses or the bald person  It’s normal to identify by the obvious identifier. It’s human nature and natural

If people are wanting to live in this unforgiving and critical world then they should do so without favour or prejudice

Unconscious bias is in all of us white black male female young or old and that should be accepted as a fact

[ColinDouglasHandshake]

Some interesting points.

The Ron Atkinson use of the word 'coloured' is something that i believe is a generational thing.

My mum and dad (mum in her 70's - dad died aged 56 in 2000) always referred to black or asian people as coloured people. They weren't racist. It was just the terminology that they used back then that was acceptable back then and they haven't kept up with changing terminology.

Nowadays, saying 'coloured' people is deemed racist and yet elderly people who aren't racist still use that word because they are not aware that they are not allowed to say that anymore as it is deemed racist.

Another story was one which Phil mentioned about singling out a black person for identification purposes, which oddly enough is something i did a few weeks back with my mate at a Rovers match. I remember this because we spoke about it at the time and actually discussed if it was racist or not.

Can't remember which team it was who we played but they had a black player up front and i asked my mate who the black player up front for them was as i couldn't see the name on his shirt.

Am i a racist? I know i am not but for ease of identification, in a team of white players it was simpler to ask who the black player was. A bit like asking who the player is with the mullet or the player with the pink football boots.

Perhaps asking such a question makes me a racist in some people's eyes but all that matters is that i know that i am not.

What would happen if there was a woman in with a group of blokes and i asked who the woman was. By this logic this would then be sexist. Or if someone was in a wheelchair amongst a group of able bodied people and i asked who the person in the wheelchair was. Would this be disablist?

I accept it is identifying somebody on account of a clear visible physical difference and maybe this is not ideal but it isn't meant in a derogatory or demeaning way.

In my view, even if you aren't racist, you still have to be extremely careful which words you use in regards to referring to people with differences as anything i feel can be quickly jumped upon and you get labelled a racist or a sexist or discriminating against the disabled or whatever.

Sometimes it is not that easy, especially when what is deemed acceptable terminology seems to be ever changing.

I heard my GP referring to BAME communities the other week during our appointment and yet there are many people who find the term BAME offensive. So it's a minefield.

Obviously there is no excuse for hurling abuse with racial slurs at anyone and these people rightly so need eliminating from football but i genuinely do believe that most people just treat people equally regardless.

Imagine living in Russia where some football clubs don't sign black players because they ARE racist.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Atkinson didn't use the word coloured.

He responded to a mistake by Marcel Desailly saying, in comments when he thought his mic was off after commentary, "That's what we in the game call a 'f**king lazy, thick nigger'."

[keyser_soze]

Identifying a footballer with black skin as a black footballer is not racist. Prejudging that person on account of their skin colour is racist.

Ron Atkinson is the example used, and I struggle to remember exactly what was said but I believe he suggested Marcel Desailly had let his team down and referred to him as a ‘big, dumb N******’. Now no-one can argue he was a big bloke, sure he might even be a bit thick, but combining that insult with the N word automatically linked his race with his level of intelligence.

[keyser_soze]

There are several words that are ‘problematic’, linked with slavery etc. My dear sweet old Nanna wasn’t racist for calling black people ‘coloured’, but she certainly was racist for suggesting I shouldn’t bring home a black girl as she ‘didn’t want lots of little piccaninies running round’ for grandchildren.

Culturally very different times granted, but it shows the difference a couple of generations can make.

[Filo]

Why is the ‘N’ word never challenged when a black person uses it?

[keyser_soze]

I think that’s pretty problematic too, but I appreciate the context is certainly different when a black person uses it to another black person in an attempt to reclaim a phrase, without the context of centuries of oppression behind it. I’ve always liked Quentin Tarantino but I’ve always been uncomfortable with how readily he uses the phrase in his films.

[ColinDouglasHandshake]

Atkinson didn't use the word coloured.

He responded to a mistake by Marcel Desailly saying, in comments when he thought his mic was off after commentary, "That's what we in the game call a 'f**king lazy, thick nigger'."

Ah apologies. Got the wrong person then. I'm sure someone involved with footy or the FA said something like 'coloured' and had to resign? Didn't Alan Hansen also say something similar once?

[keyser_soze]

Yeah I think you’re thinking of the chairman of the FA. I seem to remember there was a lot more in the statement than the word ‘coloured’.

Reading up he suggested Asians were more interested in computers than football and that being gay was a ‘life choice’, he just happened to refer to ‘coloured footballers’ as well.

[phil old leake]

Keyser why is there a difference in context when a black person uses the N word

This is one of the points I’m making. If the term is derogatory and offensive then it’s derogatory and offensive whoever uses it

[keyser_soze]

I don’t think it’s up to someone who isn’t the target of racism to decide what is and isn’t racist, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. And absolutely a white person using a word about a black person that has historically been used by white people to oppress black people is different context to a black person using it to another black person. The historical baggage is not the same.

Might be a bit of a clunky analogy but think of my mate calling me a fat bas**rd (when I’m not actually fat) for having a second trip up to the buffet, a totally different context to him calling a genuine fat stranger the same.

[phil old leake]

I take your point Keyser but disagree with the analogy. 

This is a word that can’t be spoken because it’s so offensive. 

If anything is that offensive it should be upsetting whoever says it

Just my view I find selective outrage hypocritical 

[normal rules]

Why is the ‘N’ word never challenged when a black person uses it?

Because when Afro Caribbean’s call it each other it’s classed as a term of endearment. Like we would use the word “mate”.

[normal rules]

When I was a kid, mum used to send me off on my bike to get her some fags from the local corner shop.
I can still hear her voice now.

“ go t’ paki shop for me love,  and get yer mam some fags”

Now my mum did not have a racist bone in her body.
But this sort of chat would get you in trouble these days.probably even lose you you’re job. There was nothing prejudice in her comment. Nothing sinister. She was good friends with the owners of that shop who knew our family well.

[keyser_soze]

When I was a kid, mum used to send me off on my bike to get her some fags from the local corner shop.
I can still hear her voice now.

“ go t’ paki shop for me love,  and get yer mam some fags”

Now my mum did not have a racist bone in her body.
But this sort of chat would get you in trouble these days.probably even lose you you’re job. There was nothing prejudice in her comment. Nothing sinister. She was good friends with the owners of that shop who knew our family well.

Agreed, times change, and people are more educated now. Fair chance the shop owner was Indian which potentially would make it even more offensive to him. However, if she said 'get me some fags but don't go to that paki shop cos I hate all pakis' - that's racism.

[DonnyOsmond]

When I was a kid, mum used to send me off on my bike to get her some fags from the local corner shop.
I can still hear her voice now.

“ go t’ paki shop for me love,  and get yer mam some fags”

Now my mum did not have a racist bone in her body.
But this sort of chat would get you in trouble these days.probably even lose you you’re job. There was nothing prejudice in her comment. Nothing sinister. She was good friends with the owners of that shop who knew our family well.

She isn't racist but at that point in time it was probably seen in society as acceptable, especially when the majority of the population are white British, someone who is Pakistani or Indian or Bangladeshi would find out they're gonna be called paki and that's how it is. They probably accepted that at the time but over time it's seen as not acceptable and not something the majority of people who are from that area want to be called. It's the same kind of idea as the statues of slavers, at one point in time it was more acceptable but nowadays it's understood it happened but shouldn't be worn proudly as a badge of honour.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I take your point Keyser but disagree with the analogy. 

This is a word that can’t be spoken because it’s so offensive. 

If anything is that offensive it should be upsetting whoever says it

Just my view I find selective outrage hypocritical 

No word is offensive. It's just a string of letters. How can that be offensive?

It's the intent behind the usage that produces offence when Ron Atkinson says it. And doesn't produce offence when a black person says it to a friend.

It's really not difficult.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Look at it this way.

Can you see the difference in meaning between exactly the same letters arranged in the same order in these two circumstances?

1) You tell a corny joke among friends. Your best mate puts his arm round your shoulder laughing and says "You f**king daft Kitson."

2) You pull out of a side road without looking and hit a car. The driver jumps out and runs at you with a wheel brace in his hand shouting "You f**king daft Kitson."

It's always about context.

[wilts rover]

When a white person uses the word n*****r to a black person they are using it as an insult and to demean them. When a bleck person uses the term to another black person they are using it as a term of comradeship.

When a white person uses the word p**i to an asian person they are using it as an insult and to demean them. When an asian person uses the term to another asian person they are using it as a term of comradeship.

It's not the word, its the historic concept (slavery, NF/BNP) and intent behind it use.

To anyone serious wishing to understand this I recommend the book 'Empireland' by Sathnam Sanghera.

To anyone looking to excuse their prejudice/racism - I suggest you read it twice.

[drfchound]

I have a mate from back in the football years who was still close to a lad from an Indian background who played in the same team as him back in the 80’s.
The Indian lad sadly passed away about three weeks ago but my mate still called him Sambo as he did when they played together.
They both accepted it as a term of endearment and no malice was intended.

[keyser_soze]

I have a mate from back in the football years who was still close to a lad from an Indian background who played in the same team as him back in the 80’s.
The Indian lad sadly passed away about three weeks ago but my mate still called him Sambo as he did when they played together.
They both accepted it as a term of endearment and no malice was intended.

Fair enough - but it should be the Indian lad's decision whether he finds it offensive or not, and just because he accepted it doesn't mean that he didn't.

The only time I have been racially abused in my life was when I was called a 'white bitch' by an indigenous Australian in Cairns - I'm lucky that is the only time I ever remember it happening, and as such it was jarring but I didn't find it particularly offensive and was able to let it go, but then I hadn't got the decades of being called it and historical oppression to go with it.

[normal rules]

Does anyone on here have an issue with the word Jock, in the context of being Scottish.

Or bogtrotter, paddy or mick (Irish)
Or taff or trog (Welsh)

Because they are all racial slurs. Yet their use is commonplace. No MSM meltdown over their use either.

[keyser_soze]

I have Welsh and Scottish in the family, and certainly wouldn't chose to use any of those words to describe them.

I do have sympathy and try and educate myself on this stuff - and its a constant battle to keep up and remain educated. In my last post i had typed Aborigine for indigenous Australian before remembering that is now not a widely acceptable term for the Colonial implications.

[DonnyOsmond]

Does anyone on here have an issue with the word Jock, in the context of being Scottish.

Or bogtrotter, paddy or mick (Irish)
Or taff or trog (Welsh)

Because they are all racial slurs. Yet their use is commonplace. No MSM meltdown over their use either.

Ask people from those places. I'm guessing this forum is 95% English, it's not our place to judge if they find them offensive.

[drfchound]

I have a mate from back in the football years who was still close to a lad from an Indian background who played in the same team as him back in the 80’s.
The Indian lad sadly passed away about three weeks ago but my mate still called him Sambo as he did when they played together.
They both accepted it as a term of endearment and no malice was intended.

Fair enough - but it should be the Indian lad's decision whether he finds it offensive or not, and just because he accepted it doesn't mean that he didn't.

The only time I have been racially abused in my life was when I was called a 'white bitch' by an indigenous Australian in Cairns - I'm lucky that is the only time I ever remember it happening, and as such it was jarring but I didn't find it particularly offensive and was able to let it go, but then I hadn't got the decades of being called it and historical oppression to go with it.

The Indian lad didn’t find it offensive.

[normal rules]

Does anyone on here have an issue with the word Jock, in the context of being Scottish.

Or bogtrotter, paddy or mick (Irish)
Or taff or trog (Welsh)

Because they are all racial slurs. Yet their use is commonplace. No MSM meltdown over their use either.

Ask people from those places. I'm guessing this forum is 95% English, it's not our place to judge if they find them offensive.

I have Scottish ancestors, great great grandad onwards. I have no issue with it.

[drfchound]

Does anyone on here have an issue with the word Jock, in the context of being Scottish.

Or bogtrotter, paddy or mick (Irish)
Or taff or trog (Welsh)

Because they are all racial slurs. Yet their use is commonplace. No MSM meltdown over their use either.

Ask people from those places. I'm guessing this forum is 95% English, it's not our place to judge if they find them offensive.

I bet Wolfie will remember a renowned Sunday League Goalscorer back in the sixties from Thorne, Taffy Evans.
Taffy loved his nickname.