P&O Ferries sack staff

[albie]

Kier Starmer ( on twitter) :

I’ve spoken with staff sacked by P&O Ferries. I’m furious for them and stand with them.

The Tories have created an environment where a bad employer thinks they have license to tear up staff contracts.

Labour will introduce a new deal for working people to make work more secure.

Does that include Labour party staff....asking for a friend;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-fire-and-rehire-keir-starmer-david-evans-b1889879.html

The pot and the kettle again!
Keith doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[MachoMadness]

They are being offered their jobs back though at the new lower rate

Fire and Rehire is immoral

Labour MP tabled a Bill to make it illegal

Tory MPs voted it down and Johnson said " thanks for the suggestion" but we think Companies should not be compelled by a Law but we can encourage them to comply instead

How's that going cnut ?

The Tory MP for Dover thought she'd go and join the protesters for some cheap and insincere publicity.

Insincere because she voted against the Hire and Refire Bill.

Obviously she thought her constituents would have conveniently forgotten this.

They hadn't.

It didn't go well for her!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bY_OBD1dw

This horrible situation isn't funny in the least but her chanting along with "shame on you" until she realises the chant is directed at her is f**king hilarious. Talk about being detached from reality.

[SydneyRover]

Kier Starmer ( on twitter) :

I’ve spoken with staff sacked by P&O Ferries. I’m furious for them and stand with them.

The Tories have created an environment where a bad employer thinks they have license to tear up staff contracts.

Labour will introduce a new deal for working people to make work more secure.

Does that include Labour party staff....asking for a friend;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-fire-and-rehire-keir-starmer-david-evans-b1889879.html

The pot and the kettle again!
Keith doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I guess you understand some of the reason's why the labour party has to spend oodles of money on litigation Albie and I would imagine that you have seen the contracts being discussed in a newspaper owned by whom?

[ravenrover]

They are being offered their jobs back though at the new lower rate

Fire and Rehire is immoral

Labour MP tabled a Bill to make it illegal

Tory MPs voted it down and Johnson said " thanks for the suggestion" but we think Companies should not be compelled by a Law but we can encourage them to comply instead

How's that going cnut ?

The Tory MP for Dover thought she'd go and join the protesters for some cheap and insincere publicity.

Insincere because she voted against the Hire and Refire Bill.

Obviously she thought her constituents would have conveniently forgotten this.

They hadn't.

It didn't go well for her!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bY_OBD1dw

Particularly joining in the shame on you chant before realising it was aimed at her

[albie]

Yes Syd, I do understand that Labour have acted unlawfully in relation to staff and must face the consequences, expensive as that will prove.

Keith is not in a position to criticise fire and rehire when he has been doing precisely that in his own party. This is one of the reasons for trade unions to reduce financial support.

The matter is covered in many publications, including those of the Labour Party such as Labour List.

The Independent article is included as a summary, and the ownership of that publication is nothing to the point. None of the content is disputed, is it?

[drfchound]

Yes Syd, I do understand that Labour have acted unlawfully in relation to staff and must face the consequences, expensive as that will prove.

Keith is not in a position to criticise fire and rehire when he has been doing precisely that in his own party. This is one of the reasons for trade unions to reduce financial support.

The matter is covered in many publications, including those of the Labour Party such as Labour List.

The Independent article is included as a summary, and the ownership of that publication is nothing to the point. None of the content is disputed, is it?

I had a quick look around albie to see if anyone else had covered the story that you posted about.
Clearly it isn’t a one trick pony by the Independant and there is no defence for the double standards.
It can only be defended by people wearing blinkers.

[SydneyRover]

Yes Syd, I do understand that Labour have acted unlawfully in relation to staff and must face the consequences, expensive as that will prove.

Keith is not in a position to criticise fire and rehire when he has been doing precisely that in his own party. This is one of the reasons for trade unions to reduce financial support.

The matter is covered in many publications, including those of the Labour Party such as Labour List.

The Independent article is included as a summary, and the ownership of that publication is nothing to the point. None of the content is disputed, is it?

And the bit about why they are tangled up in expensive legislation? which is why so many jobs have had to be made redundant, no?

Ooops ...............

''In October 2020, a report by the UK's human rights watchdog found Labour to be responsible for "unlawful" acts of harassment and discrimination during Jeremy Corbyn's four-and a-half years as party leader''

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45030552

And ................ show us the contracts of those fired and hired. Working from home is a bit of a damp squib during a pandemic wouldn't you think?

[tyke1962]

Yes Syd, I do understand that Labour have acted unlawfully in relation to staff and must face the consequences, expensive as that will prove.

Keith is not in a position to criticise fire and rehire when he has been doing precisely that in his own party. This is one of the reasons for trade unions to reduce financial support.

The matter is covered in many publications, including those of the Labour Party such as Labour List.

The Independent article is included as a summary, and the ownership of that publication is nothing to the point. None of the content is disputed, is it?

And the bit about why they are tangled up in expensive legislation? which is why so many jobs have had to be made redundant, no?

Now your in two wrongs make a right territory Sydney .

[SydneyRover]

With almost universal condemnation of the sackings across parliament and Sunak chiming in too, the government will almost certainly bring in urgent legislation to prevent it happening again and to heavily sanction P&O for their actions.

As quickly as the government acted on second jobs for MPs I guess

[albie]

Sorry Syd, but I don't think you have understood what is going on here.

"And the bit about why they are tangled up in expensive legislation? which is why so many jobs have had to be made redundant, no?
Ooops ..............."

Err no, definitely not!
The Labour Party is NOT tangled up in expensive legislation.

Keith chose to ignore legal advice to Labour that the courts would support the party, and decided to settle out of court and incur costs by doing so.

Membership has fallen off a cliff, and with that subscriptions have reduced significantly.
Trade Union financial support has been withdrawn, and no new sources of income found to make up the shortfall.

The legal costs are yet to come, as those unlawfully dismissed and those illegally expelled from the Labour Party seek redress.

With regard to the anti-semitism claims, the delay in publishing the Forde Report speaks volumes about Starmer and unwelcome findings. I think if you read it (all 851 pages of it) you will see why Keith does not want it discussed.

Your final paragraph I assume is anti trade union;
"And ................ show us the contracts of those fired and hired. Working from home is a bit of a damp squib during a pandemic wouldn't you think?"

Contracts have to be respected. If the PandO staff have a good case, so also do Labour employees.
Are you saying Keith should treat these cases differently?....there is no difference in law as far as I am aware.

What is your point here?

[SydneyRover]

Sorry Syd, but I don't think you have understood what is going on here.

"And the bit about why they are tangled up in expensive legislation? which is why so many jobs have had to be made redundant, no?
Ooops ..............."

Err no, definitely not!
The Labour Party is NOT tangled up in expensive legislation.

Keith chose to ignore legal advice to Labour that the courts would support the party, and decided to settle out of court and incur costs by doing so.

Membership has fallen off a cliff, and with that subscriptions have reduced significantly.
Trade Union financial support has been withdrawn, and no new sources of income found to make up the shortfall.

The legal costs are yet to come, as those unlawfully dismissed and those illegally expelled from the Labour Party seek redress.

With regard to the anti-semitism claims, the delay in publishing the Forde Report speaks volumes about Starmer and unwelcome findings. I think if you read it (all 851 pages of it) you will see why Keith does not want it discussed.

Your final paragraph I assume is anti trade union;
"And ................ show us the contracts of those fired and hired. Working from home is a bit of a damp squib during a pandemic wouldn't you think?"

Contracts have to be respected. If the PandO staff have a good case, so also do Labour employees.
Are you saying Keith should treat these cases differently?....there is no difference in law as far as I am aware.

What is your point here?

If the labour party settled out of court then you nor I know what any court outcomes would be? settling out of court drew a line under a period where indecision was the order of the day under the leadership of corbyn and allowed Starmer to get on with the job of taking it up to the tories. The problem was even with all those members that worshipped cobyn they were trashed, which tells me labour were going 180 degrees in the wrong direction to oust the tories. Unfortunately people saw a lying, philandering, cowardly, racist dilettante as a better option.

Labour with the able assistance of Unite was absolutely trashed at the last election please never forget this in your dissertations about Starmer who has despite the war still has labour's nose in front.

There are findings against the labour party regarding antisemitism under corbyn, has there been any findings against the labour party under Starmer that are not related to the corbyn era or any at all?

My point is that you take any opportunity to trash Starmer and yet so far under the most trying times he has put labour in with a smell of recovering from the damage done under corbyn. And despite all this I would still have voted against a conservative government.

[rich1471]

Indian agency workers hired to replace P&O Ferries crews in Dover are being paid £1.81 an hour, a union claims.This is shocking if true

[Sprotyrover]

It was on the news Rich, They give them 6 month contracts ,put them on the Ferries and they work them on 12 hour shifts 7 days a week for the 6 months. Pretty much the same is happening on every ship in the worlds merchant navy fleets. If you look at most ships they are crewed by folks from the poorer regions of the world.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dead simple solution to this. Don't use P&O.

We've used them most summers to travel over to Europe to see family. They can f**k right off now. I'd rather swim across.

[Filo]

P&O owners set to receive £50M of UK taxpayers money supporting their interests in Freeports

They should never get anywhere near this money

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/21/po-ferries-owner-to-benefit-from-at-least-50m-of-uk-freeport-scheme

[Ldr]

P&O need to be driven out of business, hit the owners in the pocket

[Donnywolf]

They will go bust as we won't be able to export soon ... too expensive

Won't be able to import food etc ... too expensive

Won't be any passengers heading to France Belgium  etc ... can't stay more than 90 days in a 180 day period

[Donnywolf]

 

[drfchound]

If P&O are not a UK registered company, was there anything that our government could have done to prevent this horrendous situation that put so many people out of work.

[wilts rover]

Paul Scully, Business Minister, on tv this morning:

Reid: Did you vote to ban fire and rehire?

Scully: There wasn't a vote

Reid: There was a vote, other Tory MPs voted against it

Scully: There was no vote

https://twitter.com/ukiswitheu/status/1506190013838548992

Here are the results of the vote that didn't happen (211 for - 0 against)

https://twitter.com/aunty_shirley/status/1506196198520152067

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's the official Parliamentary record of the vote that the minister says never happened
https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1253

I've been saying for years that there was a creeping move in the Tory party towards normalising outright lying over matters of objective truth.

It's not creeping anymore. It is rampant. They have realised that being truthful no longer matters, because enough people just blame all politicians for not being truthful. 

[danumdon]

Here's the official Parliamentary record of the vote that the minister says never happened
https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1253

I've been saying for years that there was a creeping move in the Tory party towards normalising outright lying over matters of objective truth.

It's not creeping anymore. It is rampant. They have realised that being truthful no longer matters, because enough people just blame all politicians for not being truthful. 

Good find BST, it should always be brought to the attention of the voting public when the Gov tries to evade and deceive.

Can we have it on record or will it be a given that you will be as fervent and investigative when/if we have the next labour Gov in power.

After all we would all want the current Gov of the day to be held to account and hold the highest standards of integrity and decency after the shambles and corruption that this one has demonstrated on a daily basis.

Thanks in advance.

[danumdon]

Do P&O ferries think that this offer excuses them of the upset and anguish that the 800 seafarers have had to endure over this brutal episode.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/22/po-to-pay-365m-in-compensation-to-800-sacked-workers

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.
I will always decry anyone who outright lies on matters of objective truth.

Always have. Always will. It's my nature.

But this genuinely hasn't happened before. Politicians have always spun and put the best gloss on things. Tried to bury stuff that didn't help. That was normal.

But they didn't outright lie.

If they were caught doing that, it was the end of their career.

I saw this starting to change 9-10 years ago. Cameron was officially written to by the head of the National Audit Office and told to stop quoting factually wrong statistics about the economy. Javid early in his career was on TV outright lying about the Austerity policy. These weren't opinions that you could squint at and say, yeah, there's a case to be made there. They were lies. Pure and simple.

And the end of the road is that you have a PM who lies as easily as he breathes. You have Javid telling us that what we all heard with our own ears never happened. You have Scilly insisting that a vote that anyone can check in 5 seconds, never happened.

It is genuinely terrifying how ingrained this rejection of Objective Truth is on the Right. It's a simple fact that the problem does not exist to anything like that extent on the Left. If it did, I would call it out every time. If you know of some examples, tell me.

[danumdon]

DD.
I will always decry anyone who outright lies on matters of objective truth.

Always have. Always will. It's my nature.

But this genuinely hasn't happened before. Politicians have always spun and put the best gloss on things. Tried to bury stuff that didn't help. That was normal.

But they didn't outright lie.

If they were caught doing that, it was the end of their career.

I saw this starting to change 9-10 years ago. Cameron was officially written to by the head of the National Audit Office and told to stop quoting factually wrong statistics about the economy. Javid early in his career was on TV outright lying about the Austerity policy. These weren't opinions that you could squint at and say, yeah, there's a case to be made there. They were lies. Pure and simple.

And the end of the road is that you have a PM who lies as easily as he breathes. You have Javid telling us that what we all heard with our own ears never happened. You have Scilly insisting that a vote that anyone can check in 5 seconds, never happened.

It is genuinely terrifying how ingrained this rejection of Objective Truth is on the Right. It's a simple fact that the problem does not exist to anything like that extent on the Left. If it did, I would call it out every time. If you know of some examples, tell me.

There was a post from Albie posted a couple of days ago in this thread about the labour party and its issues with employment law, i don't know if you missed it, it does shed some light on the operational integrity of Mr Starmer.


Quote from: foxbat on March 18, 2022, 10:01:18 pm

    Kier Starmer ( on twitter) :

    I’ve spoken with staff sacked by P&O Ferries. I’m furious for them and stand with them.

    The Tories have created an environment where a bad employer thinks they have license to tear up staff contracts.

    Labour will introduce a new deal for working people to make work more secure.


Does that include Labour party staff....asking for a friend;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-fire-and-rehire-keir-starmer-david-evans-b1889879.html

The pot and the kettle again!
Keith doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Can you point out where Starmer has lied about an issue of Objective Truth?

[danumdon]

Can you point out where Starmer has lied about an issue of Objective Truth?

Yep your right, i should of made it clear i wasn't posting this in regard to objective truth but on the broader question of integrity and decency in politics specific to a party leader, i assume you find that kind of behavior deceitful? and you would question the morals of that individual?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't ever claim that any politician is perfect. It's a dirty game.

Churchill unquestionably caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indians in WWII and authorised war crimes over Dresden and Hamburg. Does that mean he shouldn't have been our war leader?

Attlee's Govt might have founded the Welfare State, but they presided over some bestial colonial fighting.

No politician is perfect. Expecting moral perfection in every decision is childish. You vote for the least bad.

In this case, you are repeating contested allegations about Starmer that come from a very clear aim of the Far Left to take him down for being the Anti-Jeremy. If it's true, and I have no idea if it is because it's hard to keep up with the allegations the Left throw at him, then it makes me think less of him, unquestionably.


 But I am talking about something far more fundamental. Relationship with truth.

[danumdon]

I see, so its not a case that we hold all our political leaders to the highest standards of integrity and decency just the ones we don't particularly like.

This starts to build a picture of a leader who fronts up as one thing but is very adapt at being something else. When we take what we know about the labour leader and add his past history as DPP we start to see someone who competence in the role looks like something that is desirable if not essential.

Still if were voting for the last bad then everything will be rosy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD
The most basic level is whether politicians are prepared to lie about Objective Truth as a matter of course. Nothing else compares to that. Everything else is on a spectrum of (un)acceptability. Part of the messy space between ideals and reality.

Absolutely, you hold politicians to task if they fall below the standards of moral behaviour you think acceptable. But if a politician and a party normalises straight out lying, and they get away with that, then democracy is dead. Because you cannot hold a party to account if you don't start off from a framework of established truths.