It's not me it's EU

[BigH]

And so here we go again.

A spot of domestic bother and Johnson reaches for the self-appropriated gift that keeps on giving; Brexit.

Or more precisely, the Northern Ireland Protocol.

Anything to deflect from the real issues of the day. Another 'dead cat' strategy; let's rev up the anti-Europeanism, provoke the Hun and all that.

Does anybody buy this bo**ocks any more?

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's only an issue because of the DUP refusing to play nicely. The big problem is that the DUP think they're blackmailing the UK government (as well as denying Sinn Fein the First Ministership) instead of realising that Boris & co absolutely don't give a shit about Northern Ireland.

[Donnywolf]

Unfortunately around 38 up to 43 % of Electorate (who actually vote that is ) DO still buy this s**t

That is enough to keep Johnson in power and 43% would get them an 80 seat majority or somewhere close

They would then say " we have a mandate to carry on with whatever they promise in manifesto" whilst probably ignoring most of it and carry on much as they do today and yesterday and last week last month last year

The opposition is obviously split but hold the balance of the Electorate say 57% of "active" voters but are totally split of course. Labour itself is probably split into 3 or 4 factions and all that does is perpetuate what we have now.

The opposition should form one Party to oppose Johnson in every Seat because Democratically they CAN defeat him

They should have but one item on their manifesto ... That being a vote for US is a vote for PR in some format

Then we could see the end of extremism from wherever it comes either right or left forever and have a voting system fit for this Century

People might then take more interest in Politics if they thought their vote would count. Parties like the Greens could flourish immediately getting 7% of the vote going forward would get them 7% of the Seats ... Let's call it 45 not 1 as they got in 2019.

Supporters could then be encouraged and more votes for them would equate to even more Seats and moderation would flourish

Surely unless you are one of the 43% content with things as they are it must be a better way to go than the current way  - and what the current way "produces"

[phil old leake]

DW proportional representation has got to be the way forward. It’s the only way that every vote counts

How many times have parties been elected with more seats and less votes than the  main opposition

How can it be right that the Lib Dems voters basically don’t count for seats but the actual amount of supporters proportional should count for something

[BigH]

I have to say that prior to 2019 I thought that our First Past The Post system, for all it's flaws, suited this country best. It usually gave a balanced(ish) outcome that kept the government of the day in some sort of check. Far from perfect but it seemed to work.

Now, I'm firmly in the PR camp. The wanton vandalism to our political system that we've seen over the last two and a bit years makes me fear for what is to come and the prospect of the sort of reductive politics that we've seen in the US coming over here makes me shudder.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Agreed Big H, although I'd argue that FPTP has been broken for a lot longer than that. Any system where a party can get effectively unopposed power with 40% of the vote is entirely undemocratic. Our system hasn't worked for 50 years.


In my bleaker moments I do worry that future historians are going to tear their hair out the party political divisions were maintained in this era, when the real existential battle wasn't left-right, but Objective Truth Vs Alternative Reality.

The problem is, in the battle over truth, it's simply a fact that the biggest anti-truth peddlars are on the Right. That doesn't mean everyone on the right is a threat to truth, nor that everyone on the left is a supporter of truth. But there's enough of a preponderance of liars on the right that criticising them can seem like it's party political, and just drives right-leaning people into their defence. As we frequently see in the microcosm here.

What's really needed is a common front of supporters of Objective Truth against the liars. But I don't see it coming. And that worries me about the future my kids will inherit. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS.
The only solution I see is PR and an alliance of the defenders of the concept of Objective Truth. It would help if the unions would stop blocking Labour conference in its support for PR.

[selby]

  Your more likely to see constituency boundary changes  before the next election that favour the Tory Party than PR, in fact you will do.

[Donnywolf]

Already proposed Thorne (the bit that is in Don Valley) will be changed somewhat to include most of Isle of Axholme

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

PS.
The only solution I see is PR and an alliance of the defenders of the concept of Objective Truth. It would help if the unions would stop blocking Labour conference in its support for PR.

How much of that is labour realising that it would actually harm them as much as the Tories? Whilst both major parties have the power it isn't ever going to change.

Just remember, pr probably would have seen ukip at least a minor party in a coalition.

[BigH]

UKIP is essentially what we've got now!

[danumdon]

I think you have to be very careful and think about what you wish for. Look at the way PR has totally skewered the way politics works in places like Israel, some absolute nuts jobs hold the balance of power and will always hold the majority parties feet to the fire, would we really want this.

Think about this in the future, you could have a very nationalistic SNP/DUP/SF holding the balance of power, what would they require for their support?. What about even further ahead, what if some extreme parties due to demographic changes wanted their 10quids worth?

The only positive i see in it is if parties with well thought out, positive and transformative policies (for the right reasons) came together and managed to pass policy that would not be just for the short tern (5years) thinking but would transform our society over the next 10 to 30 years to really underpin good governance.

Is that doable in our splintered society?

[SydneyRover]

You are taking the piss aren't you DD?

[danumdon]

Absolutely not, unlike you.

[wilts rover]

PS.
The only solution I see is PR and an alliance of the defenders of the concept of Objective Truth. It would help if the unions would stop blocking Labour conference in its support for PR.

How much of that is labour realising that it would actually harm them as much as the Tories? Whilst both major parties have the power it isn't ever going to change.

Just remember, pr probably would have seen ukip at least a minor party in a coalition.

The Labour Party is a coalition - it contains people with a very broad range of views. With PR it would disappear as these individual sections would splinter to form their own parties. That's why the Labour hierarchy dont like it.

[SydneyRover]

''some absolute nuts jobs hold the balance of power '' or worse holding absolute power aye DD

[danumdon]

PS.
The only solution I see is PR and an alliance of the defenders of the concept of Objective Truth. It would help if the unions would stop blocking Labour conference in its support for PR.

BST, why is it the unions keep blocking PR in the Labour movement?

[danumdon]

''some absolute nuts jobs hold the balance of power '' or worse holding absolute power aye DD

Was this not also the case when Labour was in power with less than 40% of the electorate?

Works both ways.

[SydneyRover]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

[danumdon]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

Hardly worse?

I'm thinking Catweazle in charge and the country in civil war, what this would of done for the situation in Ukraine does not bare thinking about.

[wilts rover]

I think you have to be very careful and think about what you wish for. Look at the way PR has totally skewered the way politics works in places like Israel, some absolute nuts jobs hold the balance of power and will always hold the majority parties feet to the fire, would we really want this.

Think about this in the future, you could have a very nationalistic SNP/DUP/SF holding the balance of power, what would they require for their support?. What about even further ahead, what if some extreme parties due to demographic changes wanted their 10quids worth?

The only positive i see in it is if parties with well thought out, positive and transformative policies (for the right reasons) came together and managed to pass policy that would not be just for the short tern (5years) thinking but would transform our society over the next 10 to 30 years to really underpin good governance.

Is that doable in our splintered society?

I am not sure that Israel is a good example or a model of anything when it comes to politics DD! They are a pretty extreme society because a lot of pretty extreme people live there (some really nice and friendly ones too though).

Would their politics be more or less extreme with FPTP? There is an argument to say that PR means the centre ground parties moderate the extremists. Under FPTP they could just take over the main parties and make them extreme without challenge, as Trump and Johnson have.

PR means everyone has to compromise to get things done, so everyone is represented. It should also mean that good politicans can come to the fore - rather than political chancers who toe the party line.

Is that douable in our splintered society - not really when the vast majority of the printed and much of the broadcast media have a vested interest in seeing a particular party/political system in place. Only 68% of eligble voted in 2019 (down from 2017) - and less than half of those voted Tory - so we aren't actually that splintered - more apathectic. I think a PR system would change that as more people would think their vote would count.

[wilts rover]

PS.
The only solution I see is PR and an alliance of the defenders of the concept of Objective Truth. It would help if the unions would stop blocking Labour conference in its support for PR.

BST, why is it the unions keep blocking PR in the Labour movement?

It's not for me to speak for BST, he has his own views I don't always agree with, but as explained above it's the Labour leadership that don't like it - bacause it would split the party up (and they would be out of a job). So they get the unions to block it.

[SydneyRover]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

Hardly worse?

I'm thinking Catweazle in charge and the country in civil war, what this would of done for the situation in Ukraine does not bare thinking about.

sounds like you would have disrespected the result

[drfchound]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

Hardly worse?

I'm thinking Catweazle in charge and the country in civil war, what this would of done for the situation in Ukraine does not bare thinking about.

sounds like you would have disrespected the result

Of course no one has disrespected the result of the last GE have they?

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

Hardly worse?

I'm thinking Catweazle in charge and the country in civil war, what this would of done for the situation in Ukraine does not bare thinking about.

sounds like you would have disrespected the result

Of course no one has disrespected the result of the last GE have they?

People voted for a liar, they got a liar. What's to disrespect?

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS.
The only solution I see is PR and an alliance of the defenders of the concept of Objective Truth. It would help if the unions would stop blocking Labour conference in its support for PR.

BST, why is it the unions keep blocking PR in the Labour movement?

Because they are pinning their hopes on a Labour Govt elected with a majority of seats on a minority of votes that they can then influence. A Labour-led coalition that has to accommodate other views waters down their power.

By the way, you DO know that two of the last 4 Tory PMs have already relied on NI Unionist votes to get stuff through the House?

And that this couldn't happen with SF because they refuse to take their seats?

[drfchound]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

Hardly worse?

I'm thinking Catweazle in charge and the country in civil war, what this would of done for the situation in Ukraine does not bare thinking about.

sounds like you would have disrespected the result

Of course no one has disrespected the result of the last GE have they?

People voted for a liar, they got a liar. What's to disrespect?

Irrespective, some of you do.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

Hardly worse?

I'm thinking Catweazle in charge and the country in civil war, what this would of done for the situation in Ukraine does not bare thinking about.

sounds like you would have disrespected the result

Of course no one has disrespected the result of the last GE have they?

People voted for a liar, they got a liar. What's to disrespect?

It's clear that some folk invested heavily in a Tory win in 2019.

https://mobile.twitter.com/CharterhouseSq/status/1524792104194650112

[SydneyRover]

yep, it's high time the cesspit of involvement of russia in UK politics was exposed to sunlight.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm actually referencing what this voting system has thrown up and suggesting it could hardly be worse. As you have said a country divided, a liar and law breaker at the helm and an economy in tatters etc.

Hardly worse?

I'm thinking Catweazle in charge and the country in civil war, what this would of done for the situation in Ukraine does not bare thinking about.

sounds like you would have disrespected the result

Of course no one has disrespected the result of the last GE have they?

People voted for a liar, they got a liar. What's to disrespect?

Irrespective, some of you do.

It's almost like the disrespect shown by a forum user who calls regularly calls other forum users a stalker or troller just because they dare to disagree with them, isn't it?