Have I Missed Summat ?

[phil old leake]

Ok BST I understand now. My parents and others are responsible for the Industrial Revolution which was built around fossil fuels. The same Industrial Revolution that helped build this country

I also now see that they were also responsible for not having future hindsight about the effects of such fuels and also the effects of motor and industrial fuels that have helped to develop this country into a G7 country. I know some on here apparently hate this country but are willing to take all the benefits it offers them

Can I also please ask that no matter what your views are on any subjects some of you stop making every single topic about racism.  It really is quite sad.  There are forum subjects that genuinely warrant that debate this one started out about the benefits or not of having a TV debate.

[drfchound]

Yes Phil, some good points there.
My dad grafted in the pits for most of his life and my mum started work at 14 as an apprentice gents hairdresser and through further hard graft, opened her own business and  held it down through thick and thin for over 30 years before she retired.
Both of them would turn in their graves knowing that they are seen as being responsible for all the ills that befall us now.

Edit:  And neither of them ever voted Tory.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Phil

Your first paragraph I will ignore because it's just daft.

Your second one...well we've known about human made global warming for half a century, so there's no hindsight needed. But if you want to talk about where we are now, and bring this debate round full circle, several of the remaining leadership candidates are talking about watering down our Net Zero committments. Presumably because they need policies that appeal to the predominantly  well off, old, white male southerners whose votes they need to attract to win the leadership.

[phil old leake]

BST yes we have known about Global warming for a long time but it wasn’t thought of as it is today. Or are you suggesting that it was known about and discussed to the extent it is today and deliberately ignored to cause the downfall of todays youth

Hound your also right my parents would also be turning in their graves. They worked long hard hours to improve themselves and their family. My dad also spent the majority of his life in the mines and my mother worked long and hard in various jobs to support and courage the family to achieve. It is quite disrespectful to slander these hard working people (and there are many many others like them) with the current crisis
I do agree that house prices are ridiculous in comparison to wages. That’s not only down to old / middle aged folk. There are plenty of young people taking advantage of the situation and doing well for themselves. There’s only a market if people are willing to pay.  It’s not only boomers buying and selling

[BillyStubbsTears]

Phil

1) I don't know how many times I have to repeat that I'm not talking about individual pensioners. I'm talking about them on average as a group. Actually, if you're listening to Hound, I suspect I DO know how many times I'll have to say it. EVERY time.

2) No of course I'm not saying that pensioners f**ked the world up deliberately to screw up their grandkids. Do you want to have a sensible discussion on this or not? I'm saying it's been clear for a long, long time how this was going, and the Boomer generation, on average, preferred to ignore it. Because it would have meant changes in their lifestyle and wealth that they preferred not to engage with. So they were happy to listen to the bullshitters who told them it was all a con. Not because the Boomers were evil. Because, on average they preferred to stay ignorant. By the way, there's a poll out in today's Times of the views of Tory party members. Only 4% of them consider the climate crisis to be an important issue. What's the excuse for them?

[wilts rover]

BST yes we have known about Global warming for a long time but it wasn’t thought of as it is today. Or are you suggesting that it was known about and discussed to the extent it is today and deliberately ignored to cause the downfall of todays youth

Hound your also right my parents would also be turning in their graves. They worked long hard hours to improve themselves and their family. My dad also spent the majority of his life in the mines and my mother worked long and hard in various jobs to support and courage the family to achieve. It is quite disrespectful to slander these hard working people (and there are many many others like them) with the current crisis
I do agree that house prices are ridiculous in comparison to wages. That’s not only down to old / middle aged folk. There are plenty of young people taking advantage of the situation and doing well for themselves. There’s only a market if people are willing to pay.  It’s not only boomers buying and selling

Phil, the average house price today is 65 times higher than in 1970. But the average wage is only 36 times higher:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/how-uk-house-prices-have-soared-ahead-average-wages

Wealth inequality in the UK fell from the end of WW1 (when the richest 10%) had over 90% of the wealth in the country until 1985 (when it was just under 50%). Since then it has levelled out - if not risen slightly.

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2020/12/The-UKs-wealth-distribution.pdf

Yes there are some young people doing well for themselves, but in general it is more difficult for younger people to improve their lives today than it was their parents and grandparents.

There are a lot of reasons for this - and its a shame politicians dont get pushed more on what they are and what - if anything - they are going to do about it.

I agree it is silly to say 'all people of this generation are this' 'everyone in this generation is that' but in general it is more difficult for younger people to better themselves today.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.
"I agree it is silly to say 'all people of this generation are this' 'everyone in this generation is that' but in general it is more difficult for younger people to better themselves today."

I agree entirely, which is why I don't ever say all people of group X are like this.

[Bentley Bullet]

When I worra lad only bright kids went to university. Nowadays you're classed as thick if you don't go. I think there is more opportunity for young'uns now than there has ever been in that respect.

[turnbull for england]

But those that didn't go to uni " back in day" had a chance to make a decent living straight from school in any number of jobs , an opportunity that's not as easily available today. . An old lad I worked with did 30 odd year at Case, he'd never even planned to work there but had to walk down WH road to get to where he had a job , got part way down said sod that , checked positions wanted board and went in  case instead . Theres very little opportunity now for someone straight from school with no experience.

[BillyStubbsTears]

When I worra lad only bright kids went to university. Nowadays you're classed as thick if you don't go. I think there is more opportunity for young'uns now than there has ever been in that respect.

And it only costs them £50k.

I know, I know. They should shut up and be grateful.

[scawsby steve]

BST, for the purpose of this thread, do you drive an electric car?

[BillyStubbsTears]

No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.

For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.

None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.

[scawsby steve]

No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.

For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.

None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.

My point is that so many people, particularly politicians and TV pundits, are banging on all the time about climate change, and lecturing people like me, that no longer drive cars, to be more responsible, while they all continue to drive.

Hypocrisy.

[drfchound]

No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.

For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.

None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.

BST, can’t you see though that not everyone accepts that one Party or the other offers everyone what they want.
You appear to think that if some people don’t see things your way then they are making the wrong decisions.

[phil old leake]

BB. You make a good point about UNI

I would say that it is a double edge sword. So many young people go to  university that most of their degrees a de-valued. 

How many young people are sitting on degrees with sxxt jobs that they would have had without them. Only difference being they now have debt

Yes they get more education. There are so many graduates for every job that it’s not an advantage

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's because our economy no longer has need for millions of manual labourers or very low skilled workers. Modern employment requires a higher average level of education than it ever did. Even University courses that aren't overtly vocational teach students how to assemble information and work logically through it. It teaches them to develop and present cases, how to manage workloads. Those are all marketable skills which get developed at University.

Apart from the fact that being exposed to new, challenging ideas is in itself a social good.

Frankly, most people who decry University education don't know a great deal about it.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I'm mixed on university.  I wouldn't have started my career as I did without it.  But nobody's really bothered after a few years because experience is more important than education. Frankly my qualifications aren't relevant to me these days, but it is a given that I have to have my post uni qualifications.

In my field it clearly is tougher (but not impossible) without a degree. Indeed my wife has managed more than fine without one.  I look at the younger guys I've worked with and those without degrees do fine the step up to qualified status harder than those with. It's the softer none technical skills university will teach you that's important.

Do I think though the value is worth the cost? Not really. For the quality of teaching I'd say on my course was quite poor.

[Colemans Left Hook]

You're right CLH that Tugendghat goes today. He's the lady of the (generally) moderates left in the race, although he has a switch that turns him into an uncontrolled lunatic whenever anyone mentions "war" so maybe it's for the best that he won't be in charge.

Of the others, there are four believers in failed far right economics, one of whom is determined to paint herself as Thatcher Reduce but without quite knowing what that means, one who is determined to fight a thermonuclear Culture War that no-one really cares about and one who is so lacking in any content that she doesn't even want us to talk about who is leader.

If this were an interview panel, the decision would be "None appointable. Re-advertise".

But given where we are, Sunak is the only one who looks remotely electable.

And the Tories will get hammered under him in 2024.

Tom knows that China wants to take over the world but realise he has to be a pragmatist


an old repost here

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/06/13/tom-tugendhat-british-mp-china-hates/

and a new one i have just found

https://qz.com/2007290/tom-tugendhat-the-politician-warning-of-chinas-cage-rattling/

As for Penny she could be dropped tomorrow (Lord Derby said she didn't do detail - so on that basis she is a seamless replacement for Boris  )

from Feb 2015 "Mordaunt’s headstrong attitude has occasionally left the party spin doctors in a flap."

https://web.archive.org/web/20190721115937/https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/all-aboard-with-penny-mordaunt-10023878.html

[belton rover]

No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.

For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.

None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.

My point is that so many people, particularly politicians and TV pundits, are banging on all the time about climate change, and lecturing people like me, that no longer drive cars, to be more responsible, while they all continue to drive.

Hypocrisy.

No electric car and quite the global traveller (but doesn’t like to talk about it). Next he’ll be telling us his house isn’t insulated.