Don't Pay UK

[Nudga]

I can't get my head around this. If gas is dearer in the global markets, how are they making so much money?

They are either charging us a hell of a lot more than they should to cover the rise or the price has fallen and they haven't passed that on yet.

[Donnywolf]

There is a movement were people are not paying their water bills already and queuing at public taps to fill up with water ,search online

Why are they doing that when water companies don't have the authority to turn off a domestic water supply, even when there is an outstanding debt at the property?

I'm guessing that if you are on a Meter you will be racking up a Bill which you would be liable to pay

If you stop using water the Meter would show you didn't owe them anything.

However 2 things spring to mind ... There would be a standing charge of course and if you are not close to a "tap" when collecting water it will be a fight pain in the a**e

[BillyStubbsTears]

I can't get my head around this. If gas is dearer in the global markets, how are they making so much money?

They are either charging us a hell of a lot more than they should to cover the rise or the price has fallen and they haven't passed that on yet.

Because BP's primary activity is extracting oil and gas from the ground.

That's not costing them any more than it did 12 months ago. But for reasons entirely out of their influence, the price of their products has exploded.

So their profits have gone to obscene levels. Not through any major innovation they have introduced. Through a breakdown in the global supply-demand dynamics.

That is the dictionary definition of an economic windfall. It's one way that capitalism can stop working properly. The standard approach to that is for Govt to step in, confiscate the excess profit via a tax, and redistribute that money to people or companies that are being hammered by the market dysfunction.

[phil old leake]

I would hazard a guess hound that the people trying to get this off the ground will be able to afford their fuel and will not be affected by the high cost
As you point out this could be a dangerous game that could backfire and affect peoples lives for a long time

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is correct, BRR (post16)

Albie.

Run it by me how you stop the increase in the price of gas on the global markets by nationalisation.

Isn't it the case that a nationalised energy industry could simply stop increases. So they would still be buying the fuel at high cost, but that can be covered partially by taxing certain companies as well as government borrowing.

The cost of the borrowing would partly be covered by the economy being in a better state with the inflationary effect of high cost fuel neutralised. They could also sort out the Ukraine crisis rather than "fueling" it as is current.

Then bring in Universal Basic Income and the economy would flourish.

.

The French have limited price rises in energy to 4% with the sector largely in public ownership.

The point BST raises about gas prices is addressed by reducing dependence on imported gas bought on spot markets. Recommissioning Rough as a storage facility (owned by Centrica) would help short term, but electrifying some current gas uses would be comparatively easy for the UK to do.

The wider energy problem is electricity prices being tied to the cost of gas in the UK.
Break that chain, and then with the Dogger Bank windfarm on stream, the UK is set to be a net exporter of electricity via the interconnectors to Europe.

Blaming the whole crisis solely on the wholesale price of gas is just a distraction ploy.
Yes, it has happened, but we have the tools in the box to prevent serious harm....that harm is not being prevented by simply cranking up the bills for working people.

The basic core of the problem is that we in Britain currently rely excessively on gas, and there is a global shortage of the supply of gas compared to the demand for it.

Immediately, in the current crisis over the next 6 months or so, everything else is secondary.

You are muddling up long term issues of our energy mix with the short term price crisis.

I entirely agree that we shouldn't be where we are now. But we are. So arguing about that won't help.

I also entirely agree that we should be reliant far less on gas in the future, and far more on other sources. But that's going to take years to effect. So arguing about that now won't help the current crisis.

At core, the problem is that we want to use a certain amount of gas, but on the world markets, that gas is 2-3 times the cost it was 12 months ago. So someone has to pay for that. There's no getting round that.

You COULD deal with that by nationalising all the energy supply companies. But the Govt would still have to pay global prices for gas. If the Govt didn't pass those costs onto consumers, because it kept the costs down, that's fine. It would mean Govt borrowing or increased taxes elsewhere to pay for that, but I'd be cool with that.

But that is absolutely not the only way to protect consumers of energy.

The other way is to allow the market to set the price, then subsidise consumers by giving them money to cover those higher costs. Govt could do that by raising taxes elsewhere or by borrowing.

The overall effect on suppliers, consumers and Govt finances is identical in both cases.

You're muddying the waters by saying that only nationalisation can solve the immediate crisis.

By the way, France is massively insulated from global gas prices because it uses half the amount of gas per head than we do. Predominantly because they lean so heavily on nuclear power to produce so much of their energy needs. A policy that you disagree with.

Which way do you want it?

[Filo]

I’m trying to build a substantial credit balance during these summer months by making extra payments when I can, currently £250 in credit but expect that to be wiped out within a couple of months during winter

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I’m trying to build a substantial credit balance during these summer months by making extra payments when I can, currently £250 in credit but expect that to be wiped out within a couple of months during winter

Much the same and bizarrely soon I may reach a tipping point where it's cheaper to run my car on petrol than electric, which is frankly daft.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

.... and the risk of being the butt of endless jokes about corporate greed. Just look at what that did for the banking sector...

I'm not sure that the energy industry moghuls are any more bothered about being the butt of jokes any more than bankers are. I'm sure they're more focused on buying their next car, installing a bigger swimming pool, buying property in Los Angeles, and ensuring their bit on the side is kept happy and won't rock the family boat.

I'm not sure they are too. But when their shareholders see the stock price fall by 50% and the gravy train come to a juddering halt then they'll be off like a bride's nightie.

Don't forget that most shareholders are people like us, people with private pensions etc.

Another good point made in this thread, default on your bills purposefully and kiss goodbye to mortgages, credit cards, new bank accounts, car finance etc.  Not to mention in some professions your career.  Anyone who does it should think very carefully of the consequences.

I don't think anyone doubts something should be done as it's too much for many to afford, clearly the profits of BP etc are excessive and they have to contribute albeit with incentives to invest alongside that.  I don't think returning money to investors is quite the right action in this case, for others it is but I don't think oil producers ever really suffer.

[Nudga]

My energy supplier wanted £300 a month in direct debit payments.
I've cancelled that and will pay monthly for what I use, currently using around £150.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The UK has significant supplies of both oil and gas (we were a next exporter of oil in 2020). Thus if the government wished it coud reduce the cost of UK produced oil and gas to UK suppliers and thus UK consumers.

It wont because:
a) it benefits from higher prices in tax and VAT
b) a significan number of individuals connected with government have links with the oil/gas industry (LIz Truss for instance worked for Shell for 4 years)

Hydrocarbon Fuel Duty is NOT an ad valorem tax.

[Glyn_Wigley]

My energy supplier wanted £300 a month in direct debit payments.
I've cancelled that and will pay monthly for what I use, currently using around £150.

Great for summer when usage drops down a lot, but you'll probably use a lot more than the average in winter. Can you pay over £300 of usage per month then?

[Nudga]

My energy supplier wanted £300 a month in direct debit payments.
I've cancelled that and will pay monthly for what I use, currently using around £150.

Great for summer when usage drops down a lot, but you'll probably use a lot more than the average in winter. Can you pay over £300 of usage per month then?

Got three wood burners in my house and around 3 ton of wood. Hopefully won't go up too much

[Glyn_Wigley]

There is a movement were people are not paying their water bills already and queuing at public taps to fill up with water ,search online

Why are they doing that when water companies don't have the authority to turn off a domestic water supply, even when there is an outstanding debt at the property?

I'm guessing that if you are on a Meter you will be racking up a Bill which you would be liable to pay

If you stop using water the Meter would show you didn't owe them anything.

However 2 things spring to mind ... There would be a standing charge of course and if you are not close to a "tap" when collecting water it will be a fight pain in the a**e

Although all new builds have water meters, not all properties have water meters. Some properties are impossible to install meters into, and there are also big properties that have been subdivided into flats etc. that are difficult to have meters in each subdivision.

A meter isn't always the best value way of paying for water anyway - a good rule of thumb is that if there are only one or two people living at the property a meter is cheaper, but more than three people living there is cheaper on flat-rate water rates if they're still available at that property.

[albie]

BST,

There are so many basic mistakes in your view of energy markets,it is difficult to know where to start.

You seem to be content with higher prices to UK consumers being funnelled into share buybacks by the likes of BP, as long as government gives a one-off sweetener to lessen the burden.

1)
"But that is absolutely not the only way to protect consumers of energy.

The other way is to allow the market to set the price, then subsidise consumers by giving them money to cover those higher costs. Govt could do that by raising taxes elsewhere or by borrowing.

The overall effect on suppliers, consumers and Govt finances is identical in both cases."

This is complete nonsense.
Consumers of energy are NOT one group with similar profiles and concerns.

How does this protect industrial and commercial energy users?.....There are likely to be significant closures of businesses unable to pass on costs in full, or vulnerable to demand reductions on the basis of marginal price increases.

Far from being an identical impact on all sectors, it is very different for each.
The impact on Govt finances, for example, will depend on the tax income from reduced economic activity.

2)
"You're muddying the waters by saying that only nationalisation can solve the immediate crisis."

No, I am saying that nationalisation can only resolve the crisis over time, because you need to have control over energy infrastructure provision.

3)
"You are muddling up long term issues of our energy mix with the short term price crisis."

Wrong...they are not separate problems.

How you respond to the price rise on international spot markets will have a knock on effect on the choices you make going forwards. As long as the UK locks electricity prices in step with gas high energy costs are baked into the economy.

The issue is whether you add to the problem by allowing prices to rise, only to face further stress from increases every 6 months.
This is not a one-off excess profit windfall, it is a stepped increase in imported gas prices which will continue with supply restrictions.
 
Windfall taxes every 6 months make no sense at all, having failed to prevent the price rise and absorbed it into the national tax base.


4)
"I also entirely agree that we should be reliant far less on gas in the future, and far more on other sources. But that's going to take years to effect."

It is important for the climate breakdown that it does not "take years to take effect". There is no good reason why it should take years to change the balance of supply to electricity as the primary source.

Under the current system, electricity suppliers will choose to sell on international markets if the price is higher.
The UK could be selling leccy from Dogger Bank to maximise returns, not to reduce fuel poverty in the UK.

"You COULD deal with that by nationalising all the energy supply companies."
It is NOT just a matter of energy supply companies, it is also a matter of energy production infrastructure.

5)
"By the way, France is massively insulated from global gas prices because it uses half the amount of gas per head than we do. Predominantly because they lean so heavily on nuclear power to produce so much of their energy needs. A policy that you disagree with."

France is in a better position because it is further forward in electrification.
Historically, that is because of nuclear, but that would not be the most cost effective way to electrify from the options today.
A high proportion of French nuclear is offline nowadays as the industry struggles to maintain available capacity.

The question is how quickly the UK can electrify, and what is the production method best suited to that transition.
Offshore wind beats new nuclear by any metric of time and cost....no-one in their right mind would commission new nuclear (lead time over 15 years) to deliver a quick transition.

As I said in the earlier post, just prevent the price increase in the first place.
From that base, the UK needs to reform the whole energy sector to address the contribution of energy to climate change.

If you allow Ofgem to raise the cap, the impacts will be massively detrimental across the UK economy. 

[Glyn_Wigley]

My energy supplier wanted £300 a month in direct debit payments.
I've cancelled that and will pay monthly for what I use, currently using around £150.

Great for summer when usage drops down a lot, but you'll probably use a lot more than the average in winter. Can you pay over £300 of usage per month then?

Got three wood burners in my house and around 3 ton of wood. Hopefully won't go up too much

Isn't the £300 a month based upon your previous annual energy usage though, including the use of your woodburners to lower it?

[wilts rover]

The UK has significant supplies of both oil and gas (we were a next exporter of oil in 2020). Thus if the government wished it coud reduce the cost of UK produced oil and gas to UK suppliers and thus UK consumers.

It wont because:
a) it benefits from higher prices in tax and VAT
b) a significan number of individuals connected with government have links with the oil/gas industry (LIz Truss for instance worked for Shell for 4 years)

Hydrocarbon Fuel Duty is NOT an ad valorem tax.

I am clearly taking about tax on the oil and gas extraction companies. They pay 30% Corporation Tax on sale of their products - higher the price - higher the tax.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm sorry but it wasn't clear at all.

Especially as Corporation Tax isn't levied on sales at all.

[Nudga]

My energy supplier wanted £300 a month in direct debit payments.
I've cancelled that and will pay monthly for what I use, currently using around £150.

Great for summer when usage drops down a lot, but you'll probably use a lot more than the average in winter. Can you pay over £300 of usage per month then?

Got three wood burners in my house and around 3 ton of wood. Hopefully won't go up too much

Isn't the £300 a month based upon your previous annual energy usage though, including the use of your woodburners to lower it?

Not sure, we'll see in the winter. Gonna be a shock for everyone though.

They did quote us £6,500 for fixed and £3,700 variable.

Plus the third wood burner is going in later on this month so was only running two last year

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST,

There are so many basic mistakes in your view of energy markets,it is difficult to know where to start.

You seem to be content with higher prices to UK consumers being funnelled into share buybacks by the likes of BP, as long as government gives a one-off sweetener to lessen the burden.

1)
"But that is absolutely not the only way to protect consumers of energy.

The other way is to allow the market to set the price, then subsidise consumers by giving them money to cover those higher costs. Govt could do that by raising taxes elsewhere or by borrowing.

The overall effect on suppliers, consumers and Govt finances is identical in both cases."

This is complete nonsense.
Consumers of energy are NOT one group with similar profiles and concerns.

How does this protect industrial and commercial energy users?.....There are likely to be significant closures of businesses unable to pass on costs in full, or vulnerable to demand reductions on the basis of marginal price increases.

Far from being an identical impact on all sectors, it is very different for each.
The impact on Govt finances, for example, will depend on the tax income from reduced economic activity.

2)
"You're muddying the waters by saying that only nationalisation can solve the immediate crisis."

No, I am saying that nationalisation can only resolve the crisis over time, because you need to have control over energy infrastructure provision.

3)
"You are muddling up long term issues of our energy mix with the short term price crisis."

Wrong...they are not separate problems.

How you respond to the price rise on international spot markets will have a knock on effect on the choices you make going forwards. As long as the UK locks electricity prices in step with gas high energy costs are baked into the economy.

The issue is whether you add to the problem by allowing prices to rise, only to face further stress from increases every 6 months.
This is not a one-off excess profit windfall, it is a stepped increase in imported gas prices which will continue with supply restrictions.
 
Windfall taxes every 6 months make no sense at all, having failed to prevent the price rise and absorbed it into the national tax base.


4)
"I also entirely agree that we should be reliant far less on gas in the future, and far more on other sources. But that's going to take years to effect."

It is important for the climate breakdown that it does not "take years to take effect". There is no good reason why it should take years to change the balance of supply to electricity as the primary source.

Under the current system, electricity suppliers will choose to sell on international markets if the price is higher.
The UK could be selling leccy from Dogger Bank to maximise returns, not to reduce fuel poverty in the UK.

"You COULD deal with that by nationalising all the energy supply companies."
It is NOT just a matter of energy supply companies, it is also a matter of energy production infrastructure.

5)
"By the way, France is massively insulated from global gas prices because it uses half the amount of gas per head than we do. Predominantly because they lean so heavily on nuclear power to produce so much of their energy needs. A policy that you disagree with."

France is in a better position because it is further forward in electrification.
Historically, that is because of nuclear, but that would not be the most cost effective way to electrify from the options today.
A high proportion of French nuclear is offline nowadays as the industry struggles to maintain available capacity.

The question is how quickly the UK can electrify, and what is the production method best suited to that transition.
Offshore wind beats new nuclear by any metric of time and cost....no-one in their right mind would commission new nuclear (lead time over 15 years) to deliver a quick transition.

As I said in the earlier post, just prevent the price increase in the first place.
From that base, the UK needs to reform the whole energy sector to address the contribution of energy to climate change.

If you allow Ofgem to raise the cap, the impacts will be massively detrimental across the UK economy. 

Albie.

I gave up at your first point. Where on earth do you get the idea that I'm happy with BP pouring their obscene profits into shareholders' pockets?

[selby]

The companies lost money last year and nobody on here were promoting nationalisation of companies in the oil and gas industries, some thought it was progress towards a carbon free utopia.
   Some were wanting them closed down because of their part in pollution who now want the companies nationalised, will they want the cost of closing the oil and gas fields when the emergency is over? which will not be soon now.
   What would be the repercussions to the " don't pay movement" and their sympathisers if the same companies re directed all supply to the continent? who would suck it up like no tomorrow and pay the world price for their product.
   What would be the repercussions if like Shell all the companies moved their tax revenue payments to the UK last year because it was more beneficial for their tax affairs to do so, all the companies moved abroad to other countries and the country lost Billions?
  What would be the repercussions of pension firms losing revenue raised by investing in these firms?
  Who thinks companies will sell products in the UK that they won't get paid for when there is a world wide market for that same product?
  Some people are going to have to make their minds up, some who think they are highly principled people are going to have to make their minds up especially the save the world lot, reality has come twenty years too soon for them and the world they crave is staring them in the face until science overcomes the problems which it will but not in the 2030/50 timescale they crave.

 PS. share tips buy debt collector companies and Auctioneers.

[scawsby steve]

I thought the rise in bills in June was meant to be 50%?

My bill has just gone up from £128.36 to £260.99. That's a rise of over 100%.

How much longer are we, the working class, going to put up with this?
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

I thought the rise in bills in June was meant to be 50%?

My bill has just gone up from £128.36 to £260.99. That's a rise of over 100%.

How much longer are we, the working class, going to put up with this?
 

Have you come to the end of a deal and gone straight onto your supplier's standard tariff?

[scawsby steve]

I thought the rise in bills in June was meant to be 50%?

My bill has just gone up from £128.36 to £260.99. That's a rise of over 100%.

How much longer are we, the working class, going to put up with this?
 

Have you come to the end of a deal and gone straight onto your supplier's standard tariff?

Yes. In fact, they're also demanding £74 odd for what they call a final bill. They seem to be doing what they want.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Have you tried looking for a new deal elsewhere?

They always stiff you when you go onto a standard tariff. But I don't know if there are any deals out there right now. Mine is due in two months.

[Filo]

Have you tried looking for a new deal elsewhere?

They always stiff you when you go onto a standard tariff. But I don't know if there are any deals out there right now. Mine is due in two months.

Fixed deals are around double standard tariffs now

[wilts rover]

As mentioned above one of the reasons that the government wont regulate the energy industry is it's closeness with it:

Dozens of former secretaries of state, ministers, heads of intelligence agencies, ambassadors and chiefs of the British military take advantage of a revolving door that allows them to work for corporations in a sector whose interests some have promoted while in office.

Former secretaries of state Sir Michael Fallon and Philip, now Lord, Hammond, are among the beneficiaries of a process which has been criticised for being at “the heart of how the British establishment survives and thrives across Whitehall”.

The exchange of personnel between government and energy firms goes both ways. Former staff of Anglo/Dutch oil giant Shell, who are also senior executives at large mining corporations, currently sit on the boards of the Ministry of Defence (MOD) and the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO), playing a role in shaping UK foreign and military policies.

Full article here:

https://declassifieduk.org/revealed-dozens-of-uk-former-senior-officials-profit-from-fossil-fuel-corporations-rubber-stamped-by-whitehall-committee/

[normal rules]

The don’t pay movement is just promoting theft? Use gas an electric yet don’t pay for it.
What next?
Organised drive offs from the local bp?
Co ordinated trolley dash at the local Tesco?

If you refuse to pay, then switch it all off. Turn off your gas main. Switch off the fuse box.
Then call the supplier and re negotiate a price u can afford, Warning them you will change your payments if they don’t compromise.

I wonder if those behind this movement know what a CCJ is. And what happens to your credit score if you get one. They affect everything in the financial world. Getting car insurance or even a phone contract becomes difficult if you have one.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Or who's going to pay for your front door when it's been smashed in to forcibly install a pay meter.

[albie]

Glyn,

8m people in the UK are predicted to be in fuel poverty with the coming increase in energy costs.

This is at the same time as the BoE says the UK will be in recession from Q4 this year through the whole of 2023, with inflation rising to 13%.

Many of those people will not be able to pay, so will choose food (itself rising in price) over heat.

So the issue is whether the private profiteers will go to court to prosecute non-payers.
The scale of non payment will make that very difficult, and the courts will be unable to cope.

The point of the "Don't Pay" campaign is to give a voice to those unable to pay, and put political pressure on this wretched government to prevent Ofgem raising the price cap.

These increases fall much more heavily on those with limited income, because they have less disposable income to spend.
The IMF produced this graphic, to show the difference between countries. The UK needs to move the two points closer together, and towards the left axis.....somewhere near the position in France.

[Axholme Lion]

I thought the rise in bills in June was meant to be 50%?

My bill has just gone up from £128.36 to £260.99. That's a rise of over 100%.

How much longer are we, the working class, going to put up with this?

For as long as there is no credible alternative to the government we have. We need a nationalist government with the needs of the workers at heart.