Does America...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Another thread in danger of vanishing down the rabbit hole dug by a couple of Brexit obsessives.

Anyway, back to what we were talking about before they waded in.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1686813844469858319

This is what I meant about Republicans being in longer term denial on the issue of objective truth. Its really quite shocking. And it led directly to many  more Republicans than Democrats dying of COVID. Egged on by the Trumpian cohort of Republican leaders who actively encouraged their supporters to due because the alternative would have been to give up on their Culture War and talk f**king sense.

[Bentley Bullet]

Another thread in danger of vanishing down the rabbit hole dug by a couple of Brexit obsessives.

Brexit obsessives?

Oh, dear.

Oh dear oh dear.

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear.

[drfchound]

BB, what have I told you about responding to wind ups.

[Bentley Bullet]

I know mate. I really should rise above it.

[idler]

The Remoaners were griping about Brexit the minute the result was announced and before any deal was struck, good or bad. The truth is, there would never be a good deal no matter what deal was struck in the eyes of the Remoaners.

Farage said the fight would go on if he lost the Brexit vote so the same can be said of both sides BB.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What's up BB?

Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America, threatening to kill the Vice President for doing his constitutional duty?

Me, I'm happy to talk facts about Brexit in any discussion that's about Brexit. I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.

[Bentley Bullet]

What's up BB?

Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America, threatening to kill the Vice President for doing his constitutional duty?

Me, I'm happy to talk facts about Brexit in any discussion that's about Brexit. I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.

I didn't!

Oh, there I go again. I'll try harder, Hound!

[Bentley Bullet]

The Remoaners were griping about Brexit the minute the result was announced and before any deal was struck, good or bad. The truth is, there would never be a good deal no matter what deal was struck in the eyes of the Remoaners.

Farage said the fight would go on if he lost the Brexit vote so the same can be said of both sides BB.

Idler, it is totally democratic to fight for a cause that you firmly believe in, but how can democracy work if after every vote the losers claim it is their democratic right to overrule it and demand a re-vote?

Farage stated his intent to fight against EU membership had he lost, but if he had lost, the default position of the UK being a member of the EU would not have changed. Things would have carried on as normal, meaning the remain voters would have democratically got their wish instantly.

[idler]

Farage would have been going against a democratic vote as well though. The vote was too close to warrant the disparity between the Brexit agreement campaigned on and the one we ended up with.
There were enough leavers that would have rejected the hard final outcome to have swung the vote the other way. That is what has left a bitter taste in mouths of many leave voters. A Norway type deal would have been acceptable to most leavers.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pence has mostly kept his mouth shut since the coup attempt.

Not any more. He's giving Trump both barrels now.

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1686819913833267227

[BillyStubbsTears]

What's up BB?

Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America, threatening to kill the Vice President for doing his constitutional duty?

Me, I'm happy to talk facts about Brexit in any discussion that's about Brexit. I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.

I didn't!

Oh, there I go again. I'll try harder, Hound!

No, I guess it's too much to expect you hmto have any sense of self awareness.

In a thread about THE most momentous events in Western democracy since the War, you don't give a single comment on the actual theme. You slag off Starmer, the Labour Party and Remoaners.

Because, as ever, you have nothing to offer to any sensible conversation.

[Bentley Bullet]

I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!

[Bentley Bullet]

Farage would have been going against a democratic vote as well though. The vote was too close to warrant the disparity between the Brexit agreement campaigned on and the one we ended up with.
There were enough leavers that would have rejected the hard final outcome to have swung the vote the other way. That is what has left a bitter taste in mouths of many leave voters. A Norway type deal would have been acceptable to most leavers.

No one expected Farage to change his views and become a staunch Remainer had the vote gone against his wishes, but if he had demanded an immediate re-vote in the hope of reversing the outcome he would have been as undemocratic as the Remoaners were/are, and those very same undemocratic people would be condemning him for being undemocratic!

[Iberian Red]

Back to the topic of the thread,Bill Barr has no stuck the boot in.
Trump's defence is looking more and more fragile.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!

As you know full well, I responded to show how utterly stupid the comparison is.

You then piled in to give your two pennorth on Remoaners, with no reference whatsoever to the theme of the thread.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Back to the topic of the thread,Bill Barr has no stuck the boot in.
Trump's defence is looking more and more fragile.

Rats are jumping off the ship because they know they are facing 20 years if they are found to have supported the conspiracy.

I bet Giuliani is sweating more than usual.

https://youtu.be/_2r2msBEiXI

[ravenrover]

It would appear that Trump could still run a campaign for election whilst behind bars. It was done in the 1920's apparantly

[Branton Red]

What's up BB?

Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America

Just remind me who, only last week, was irredeemably stupid enough to bring their personal view on Brexit into a discussion about climate change  - one of the most serious issues threatening mankind.

"I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit."

Unbelievable lack of self awareness! And unbelievably ironic.

[Iberian Red]

You've just done the same yourself!
More irony I suppose

[Bentley Bullet]

I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!

As you know full well, I responded to show how utterly stupid the comparison is.

You then piled in to give your two pennorth on Remoaners, with no reference whatsoever to the theme of the thread.

I don't think the comparison is stupid if you compare the attitudes of Trump supporters and Remoaners who wanted a Democratic vote overturned.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What's up BB?

Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America

Just remind me who, only last week, was irredeemably stupid enough to bring their personal view on Brexit into a discussion about climate change  - one of the most serious issues threatening mankind.

"I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit."

Unbelievable lack of self awareness! And unbelievably ironic.

Go on. I'll humour you. Do you want to point out where I brought up Brexit in the context of climate change in a way that wasn't central to the point at hand?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!

As you know full well, I responded to show how utterly stupid the comparison is.

You then piled in to give your two pennorth on Remoaners, with no reference whatsoever to the theme of the thread.

I don't think the comparison is stupid if you compare the attitudes of Trump supporters and Remoaners who wanted a Democratic vote overturned.

Let me get this right.

You don't think there's anything stupid about comparing
1) The encouraging of a violent insurrection in which several people died and the Vice President's life was put in danger.

And

2) People asking for a vote to see if a policy they'd never been asked their opinion on was actually what they wanted.

Is that what you're saying? Because that what it sounds like. And how stupid would that be?

[Bentley Bullet]

Watch my lips. I don't think the comparison is stupid if you compare the attitudes of Trump supporters and Remoaners who wanted a Democratic vote overturned.

The USA may be further down the road of anti-democratic behaviour as witnessed by the post-election rioting, but such actions could well soon occur in the UK if we allow democratic votes to be overruled by bad losers.

We could very easily have allowed that to happen by cancelling the Brexit result and holding another referendum.

Shame on those who wanted one, that's what I say.

That is the comparison.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes, I know what you are saying. You think it's suitable to draw a comparison between a violent attempted coup and a call for a free vote. I get that that's what you mean.

[Branton Red]

15 years ago......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIjenjANqAk

[drfchound]

Just a thought.
If by some remote chance the Tories win the next GE would it be appropriate for Labour supporters to request another election?
The same could be applied to the reverse situation of course, just for balance.
Is it any different to requesting a revote in the Brexit situation?

[Iberian Red]

Confusing threads again.
Dear me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

15 years ago......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIjenjANqAk

Different world.

The moderates have been purged from what used to be centre-right parties in both the USA and UK.

McCain was a thoroughly decent and honorable man.

There us not a chance in a million of someone like him being chosen as the Republican candidate by the current party.

[Branton Red]

15 years ago......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIjenjANqAk

Different world.

The moderates have been purged from what used to be centre-right parties in both the USA and UK.

McCain was a thoroughly decent and honorable man.

There us not a chance in a million of someone like him being chosen as the Republican candidate by the current party.

I agree on the USA but not on the UK .......yet.

I disagree with their take on economics but both Sunak and Hunt are moderates.

The danger comes after the next GE - which is why those slavering for a Tory annihilation should be careful what they wish for.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sunak is way further to the right than any PM between 1945 and 2019. No Tory PM of the second half of the 20th century would have campaigned on the Culture War theme that Sunak is going to do. It's a lesson the Tories are learning from the Republicans.

Hunt is a moderate only in the context of the current Tory Overton Window. 15 years ago he was campaigning for the NHS to be privatised. 11 years ago he was leaning over backwards to help Murdoch buy a full stake in Sky. He looks moderate now because of the way that parry has lurched way to the right of him.

There was a mass clearance of genuinely moderate centrist Tories before the last election. You're not going to see another Ken Clarke on the Tory benches in your lifetime.
 
The key thing (applying on both sides of the Atlantic) is that the Right doesn't have any guiding economic philosophy that works. Culture War is all they have. Trump sensed that a decade ago and went all in on it. He's convinced 40% of the population that the other side is genuinely conspiring to screw them down.

I agree that the danger comes after the next election when they are wiped out and the fighting over who can best capture the far right begins.

But I'm hopeful that we are better than that in the UK. Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't see a Braverman led English National Party picking up more than 25% of the vote here.