Does America...

[danumdon]

DD
Tell me how I'm supposed to interpret this other than how I did.

"Do you think they will get the message this time, i very much doubt it and consequently play right into the hands of dangerous people like this man."

You have a situation where 87% of Republican voters think Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for attempting to overthrow democracy.

How is the Left supposed to reach out to those people? Tell them "yes, we hear you and we respect your opinions and we will accommodate them in our policy on the protection of democracy"?

Pointless trying to tell the left anything as you always assume your right and everyone else is wrong, in effect every inch a reactionary cabal.

As they say, the definition of insanity is repeating a thing constantly and getting the same result, I'm betting they will do exactly the same again because they never learn.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BR.
Tell me HOW you reach out to them! How do you reach out to people who don't believe in evolution or that Trump should be prosecuted.

What do you mean by "positive campaigning" to attract those people?

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD
Tell me how I'm supposed to interpret this other than how I did.

"Do you think they will get the message this time, i very much doubt it and consequently play right into the hands of dangerous people like this man."

You have a situation where 87% of Republican voters think Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for attempting to overthrow democracy.

How is the Left supposed to reach out to those people? Tell them "yes, we hear you and we respect your opinions and we will accommodate them in our policy on the protection of democracy"?

Pointless trying to tell the left anything as you always assume your right and everyone else is wrong, in effect every inch a reactionary cabal.

As they say, the definition of insanity is repeating a thing constantly and getting the same result, I'm betting they will do exactly the same again because they never learn.

DD.

Then tell me how I misunderstood you.

[Branton Red]

Billy

"You don't defeat ignorance and collective insanity by meeting it halfway."

"At best, it's going to be a 50 year job to drain the infection out of the right of American politics. Let demographics do the job as the population becomes more urban, less white and more educated."

You clearly think millions of people in the US are irredeemably stupid, ignorant and insane based on where they are from, their level of education and the colour of their skin.

Excuse me if I don't waste my time getting involved in a detailed policy debate with someone who is: -
a) clearly steadfast and unmovable in his convictions; and
b) holds such abhorrent and despicable views on the people in question (essentially because they don't vote in democratic elections the way you would want them to).

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton.

I don't grab these opinions out of nowhere. I look at the evidence.

Only 34% of Republican voters believe in evolution over Genesis.

As I keep saying, 87% think that Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for his coup attempt.

A massive majority believe the US economy is going backwards when every metric says it is in roaring form, and the proceeds of growth are going to the very people who make up the Republican base.

I keep asking. How are you supposed to engage with them? That's what you are saying the Left needs to do. Tell me how.

[scawsby steve]

BR.
Tell me HOW you reach out to them! How do you reach out to people who don't believe in evolution or that Trump should be prosecuted.

What do you mean by "positive campaigning" to attract those people?

BST, you're getting things wrong here by sounding off on old chestnuts and soundbites. Like lots of people, you either have never read Genesis properly, or have and not understood it, otherwise you'd know that an evolutionary process is made evident. Especially the concept that all animate life began in the sea. All this written down 2000 years before Darwin was even born.

All modern theologists believe in evolution, they just don't believe it was an accident. You're not doing 40% of Americans justice by regarding them as a load of thickos. Also, as staunch Catholics, what do you think Biden and Pelosi make of the Book of Genesis?

I have to say, a lot of this insulting reminds me of the Brexit vote and the 2019 GE, and we all saw the consequences of that.

[SydneyRover]

Faith/religion is very flexible apparently SS

''10 times Nancy Pelosi supported abortion while citing her Catholic faith''

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251310/10-times-nancy-pelosi-supported-abortion-while-citing-her-catholic-faith

[Branton Red]

Yes Labour are getting elected next year due to Tory hari kari. The Democrats may win next year as well.

But this discussion perfectly explains the travails of the Left in the UK and US over recent years.

The potential Left vote is split between Graduate Metropolitans and people of Working Class backgrounds.

The 2 factions have some different priorities (climate v cost) and some different views on social matters.

The Metropolitans dominate the Left's leadership. Where there is a clash of views the Metropolitans therefore always hold sway.

The Right (Trump) take advantage of this split my appealing to Working Class voters on social issues etc.

When the working poor vote for e.g. Trump the Metropolitans call him and them out as stupid. Driving these voters further away.

The correct response is not to accommodate Right-wing policy but to look to draw the 2 potential Left wing factions together through policy compromise and focussing campaigning on the policies that unite them.

But the Graduate Metropolitans don't do this. It's far easier (and lazier) to attack those that disagree with them as stupid.

At the heart of this error is prejudice against people they see as being less well educated, less diverse and from somehow 'lesser' areas be that the US rural South or Northern England.

A prejudice that Billy here, who despite his probable background has hung his hat firmly on the Metropolitan peg, provides an absolutely perfect example of.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Let me get this right.

1) There's a group of voters who aren't stupid in the way they vote.

2) That same group of voters vote how they do because of what other people think of them. Which is a really stupid thing to do.

Both those points can't be true at once.

[SydneyRover]

Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.

[Branton Red]

Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.

'Twas ever thus Sydney.

[SydneyRover]

Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.

'Twas ever thus Sydney.

So why would one vote to give them power?

[drfchound]

Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.

'Twas ever thus Sydney.

So why would one vote to give them power?

I don’t think it is the working class (whatever they are these days) who Labour voters call idiots for voting Tory.

[Branton Red]

Let me get this right. deliberately wrong in order to undermine an argument counter to my own

1) There's a group of voters who aren't stupid in the way they vote.

2) That same group of voters vote how they do because of what other people think of them. Which is a really stupid thing to do.

Both those points can't be true at once.

[Branton Red]

Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.

'Twas ever thus Sydney.

So why would one vote to give them power?

Been a while Sydney. "One" - is that where you've been on elocution lessons? 

Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK.

The Metropolitan Left's prejudice against (their natural ally) working class voters is a relatively new phenomenon which is damaging the Left's chances of election through how it instructs its campaigning strategies.

[SydneyRover]

My view to get what you want is that you should get labour into power then change party policy to change the voting system. When the voting system is changed pressure can be applied in the knowledge that a vote for a left party won't necessarily let the tories in again.

Back to the topic?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Let me get this right. deliberately wrong in order to undermine an argument counter to my own

1) There's a group of voters who aren't stupid in the way they vote.

2) That same group of voters vote how they do because of what other people think of them. Which is a really stupid thing to do.

Both those points can't be true at once.

Well could you explain what you meant by this then?
"When the working poor vote for e.g. Trump the Metropolitans call him and them out as stupid. Driving these voters further away."

By the way, remember that we are talking about how the situation has become so poisonous in America. I stand 100% behind that assessment. For all the reasons of fact that I've given, and many more.

Here in the UK, the situation is nowhere near as bad, as Starmer has proved by drawing back  the Red Wallers into the fold while not losing most of the metropolitan Left.

[Branton Red]

Well could you explain what you meant by this then?
"When the working poor vote for e.g. Trump the Metropolitans call him and them out as stupid. Driving these voters further away."

Surely it's blindingly obvious?!

If you tell people they are stupid, have allowed themselves to be conned, that they're collectively insane, that they're ignorant, imply that they're racists....

...why on Earth would you expect them to vote alongside you in the future?!

I have 1st hand experience of this. Having voted Labour all my life I voted against the Labour line in a "referendum that shan't be named" some 7 years ago.

I suffered some pretty vile personal abuse and insults on social media and a general refusal of people to even hear out, let alone respect, my viewpoint. Plus 2-3 years of similar from Left commentators in general terms on people who had voted the same way.

Let's just say that after this come the 2019 GE I wasn't in the mood to link arms with my abusers and sing the Red Flag let alone vote with them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like I was saying.

1) Folk are clever enough to make rational decisions in their own best interests.

2) Folk are so sensitive that they'll make decisions that aren't in their best interest if someone calls them a name.

Can't be both.

[Branton Red]

Again you're misrepresenting my viewpoint (I suspect deliberately). Read my first post again.

"People are not stupid.

People are certainly not irredeemably stupid.

People can be persuaded to think stupidly and make stupid decisions."

Equally people can be persuaded to make rational decisions in their own best interests.

How about the Left try that approach rather than the failed current approach of calling people out as idiots??

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton


We were talking about America. I'll come back to Britain later.

I've asked over and again. What is the Left  supposed to do to attract people who voted for Trump in 2016, saw him attempt a coup in 2020 and still plan to vote for him in 2024?

How do you "reach out" to them?

How do reach out to a group, 77% of which think the economy is going to hell and 95% of which think Biden has the wrong policy on Ukraine? (Poll last week).

Tell me how you reach out to them? Say "Meh, yeah, coups and fascist aggression are not that bad. We'll meet you half way."?

They were f**king idiots to vote for him in 16. Is it wrong to label them as f**king idiots for doubling down now?

[SydneyRover]

''Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK''

and this is the bit I don't understand, why would anyone from the left trust them to make decisions for them in their interest?

[ravenrover]

I wonder how much Trump will make from all the MAGA promo stuff with his smugshot on it?
That might give an idea of the stupidity of his supporters

[wilts rover]

''Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK''

and this is the bit I don't understand, why would anyone from the left trust them to make decisions for them in their interest?

Because they think they are 'getting one over on the metropolitan elite' (see above posts).

By voting for the metropolitan elite (see right-wing politicans everywhere).

That is the measure of success for right-wing politicans and parties in this century. Multi-millionaires and billionaires like Trump, Putin, Johnson, Sunak, have convinced a large proportion of the working class that they have their best interests at heart and all their problems are down to the 'metropolitan elite'. When these politicans are the very essence of the metropolitan elite.

[SydneyRover]

''Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK''

and this is the bit I don't understand, why would anyone from the left trust them to make decisions for them in their interest?

Because they think they are 'getting one over on the metropolitan elite' (see above posts).

By voting for the metropolitan elite (see right-wing politicans everywhere).

That is the measure of success for right-wing politicans and parties in this century. Multi-millionaires and billionaires like Trump, Putin, Johnson, Sunak, have convinced a large proportion of the working class that they have their best interests at heart and all their problems are down to the 'metropolitan elite'. When these politicans are the very essence of the metropolitan elite.

sweet

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like I was saying. How do you reach out to this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66632882

If people are actively supporting a career liar, criminal and insurrectionist, you don't try to understand them. You beat them and neutralise their poison.

[TonySoprano]

I wonder how much Trump will make from all the MAGA promo stuff with his smugshot on it?
That might give an idea of the stupidity of his supporters

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66632882

Awesome ! Where can I buy a t shirt ?
Owt to wind up a few lefty snowflakes 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah. There's nothing that winds up lefty snowflakes more than people announcing that they are bell ends.

[Branton Red]

Billy

I'm advocating positive campaigning on how the Democrat's policies can improve people's lives (esp poor people).

To defeat Trump in a 2 party system they have to persuade people who have voted Trump in the past or are considering doing so to vote for them. You have to reach out to them. There's no other choice.

For the 2nd time I'm not advocating meeting Trump's policies halfway - please stop misrepresenting me it doesn't help the debate. Neither am I suggesting reaching out to Trump's die hard, T-shirt buying supporters. But to ordinary folk who are swing voters.

Trump is the most effective populist campaigner in world history - partly due to use of modern technology. He thrives on division and divisiveness. His strategy is divide and rule. He positively encourages Left commentators/politicians to call him/his supporters stupid by triggering them by making mad/controversial outbursts.

Calling people out as "f**king idiots" may help salve your anger (and I'm not disputing it's accuracy btw) but it plays into Trump's hands and is counterproductive. Trump thrives off of such diatribe. He thrives on divisiveness and there's nothing more divisive than calling people out as "f**cking idiots".

[TonySoprano]

Yeah. There's nothing that winds up lefty snowflakes more than people announcing that they are bell ends.

Easy meat