Freedom of speech ref Nigel Farage's bank accounts

[BillyStubbsTears]

It seems some people can never be willing to admit to being wrong.

Even when you prove them conclusively to be wrong with evidence and explanation they still insist on being right.

I note no acknowledgement of the error you made in your insistence on quoting a memo provably sent long after the decision was made and approved.

"The Committee did not think continuing banking NF was compatible with Coutts given his publicly-stated views that were at odds with our position as an inclusive organisation. This was not a political decision but one centred around inclusivity and Purpose."[note not commerce]

How am I misinterpreting that???????

That's on the summary page of the report underlying the decision and is followed immediately by an explanation of the process to be followed to close the Accounts.

But hey ho!

Go on.

What does the report state IMMEDIATELY after that?

[Branton Red]

It seems some people can never be willing to admit to being wrong.

Even when you prove them conclusively to be wrong with evidence and explanation they still insist on being right.

I note no acknowledgement of the error you made in your insistence on quoting a memo provably sent long after the decision was made and approved.

"The Committee did not think continuing banking NF was compatible with Coutts given his publicly-stated views that were at odds with our position as an inclusive organisation. This was not a political decision but one centred around inclusivity and Purpose."[note not commerce]

How am I misinterpreting that???????

That's on the summary page of the report underlying the decision and is followed immediately by an explanation of the process to be followed to close the Accounts.

But hey ho!

Go on.

What does the report state IMMEDIATELY after that?

"After expiry of the mortgage with Coutts, NF would not be a criteria client"

Not being a criteria client is not the same as saying his EC (Economic Contribution) is no longer sufficient to retain on a commercial basis.

As they acknowledge it is on Page 3 - but nowhere state it will no longer be after the mortgage is paid. Tellingly.

This is different to the "commercial criteria" it is stated he has been below for "some time" on page 36 i.e. some time meaning for significant period before the mortgage was repaid not immediately on it becoming repaid.

As I've stated before with evidence many Coutts customers retain their Accounts despite falling below the commercial criteria for opening an Account.

Try again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Arg!

They made a judgement that because his economic value was so low, it wasn't worth the reputational damage they judged that they'd face if he went off on one again.

That's my point! It's SO clear! The line that they hoped him out solely (or even primarily) because they disagreed with his politics (which is how this is being spun) is simply nonsense.

Ask yourself this. Why didn't they take this action when he was economically beneficial to them?

[Branton Red]

The frustration is mutual believe me. I'll ask my 2 questions again.

"The Committee did not think continuing banking NF was compatible with Coutts given his publicly-stated views that were at odds with our position as an inclusive organisation. This was not a political decision but one centred around inclusivity and Purpose."[note not commerce]

How am I misinterpreting that? Please explain to me so I can understand. It doesn't mention his economic value or reputational damage.

You state "Every single section of that report that discusses formal decisions to kick Farage out explicitly states that he didn't meet the commercial criteria for continued business"

Give me an example.

And PS your last post is contradicting yourself - you now admit he was economically beneficial to them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dear God.

There are two and only two statements in that report that refer to a DECISION, rather than opinions being kicked around.

Both of them note him being below the commercial criteria. Both discuss that in the context of reputational risk to the bank. Neither of them mention inclusivity or values.

It is just ridiculous to insist that economic value wasn't an issue.

As for your last paragraph, I haven't got a clue what you're on about. I'm contradicting nothing. I'm saying that presumably Farage WAS economically worthwhile to Coutts at some point, and they didn't hoy him out then, values, inclusivity and Purpose or nor.

That's my whole point.

[Branton Red]

Dear God.

There are two and only two statements in that report that refer to a DECISION, rather than opinions being kicked around.

Both of them note him being below the commercial criteria. Both discuss that in the context of reputational risk to the bank. Neither of them mention inclusivity or values.

It is just ridiculous to insist that economic value wasn't an issue.

As for your last paragraph, I haven't got a clue what you're on about. I'm contradicting nothing. I'm saying that presumably Farage WAS economically worthwhile to Coutts at some point, and they didn't hoy him out then, values, inclusivity and Purpose or nor.

That's my whole point.

Please can you quote those 2 statements and refer to where they are in the document.

It's surely ridiculous to insist that disagreement with his political opinions wasn't an issue. Given the quote I keep repeating and you are failing to acknowledge or explain away.

"The Committee did not think continuing banking NF was compatible with Coutts given his publicly-stated views that were at odds with our position as an inclusive organisation. This was not a political decision but one centred around inclusivity and Purpose."

It is provable that the November 2022 report is the one that the bank acted on and approved.

[mugnapper]

I wonder why Coutts ever engaged in debate over this.
Why didn't they invoke the 'we can't comment on individual account issues due to customer confidentiality' defence?
Fortunately I doubt it's going to put off any of us from opening a Coutts account.

[drfchound]

I’ve closed mine off the back of this.

[ncRover]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23634951.rbs-shuts-account-scotlands-equalities-commissioner/

Another example.

[Donnywolf]

I wonder why Coutts ever engaged in debate over this.
Why didn't they invoke the 'we can't comment on individual account issues due to customer confidentiality' defence?
Fortunately I doubt it's going to put off any of us from opening a Coutts account.

Have I missed summat, cos if it's Farage and Cnutts Bank I will understand and say they should have kept him

[ncRover]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/28/gina-miller-true-and-fair-party-monzo-bank-account

And another. Gina Miller this time. Interested to hear your thoughts Billy and Wilts.

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/28/gina-miller-true-and-fair-party-monzo-bank-account

And another. Gina Miller this time. Interested to hear your thoughts Billy and Wilts.

I've got absolutely zero opinion on it.

They have rules that they don't accept accounts from political parties. They've applied the rules. What's the story?

[Branton Red]

Thanks for pointing out these other instances nc.

This is very concerning for anyone who genuinely believes in freedom of speech and democracy.

I wonder what justification they have for closing the account of a Equalities and Human Rights Commissioner?

As bad as YBS closing down a vicar's account due to his disagreement with Pride flags I wonder? (see reply 7)

And Gina Miller is correct (someone who btw I disagreed with very strongly back in 2016-9).

If all banks refused to have political parties as customers what would that mean for our democracy?

She claims 9 banks turned her party down previously. Monzo is the 10th. And they can now only rely on a 'small institution' to bank with. I wonder, in that case, if they're getting the service they require from their 11th choice bank?!

Perhaps the Government should supply banking services through NS&I if the private sector are acting in this way?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well fascinatingly, every other political party in the country, from the Tories to Count Binface manages to find someone to bank with, so presumably there isn't actually a crisis of democracy going on.

[tyke1962]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/28/gina-miller-true-and-fair-party-monzo-bank-account

And another. Gina Miller this time. Interested to hear your thoughts Billy and Wilts.

Gina Miller voicing concerns about democracy !!!

Well Well Well .

[Branton Red]

Well fascinatingly, every other political party in the country, from the Tories to Count Binface manages to find someone to bank with, so presumably there isn't actually a crisis of democracy going on.

Ah the voice of corporate banking strikes again! Only 1 political party struggling to find someone to bank with being ok in your view?!

But oh no! Whoops! Here's another example news.sky.com/story/metro-bank-accused-of-closing-account-over-brexit-by-reform-uk-leader-12926002

Also it seems Monzo has history on this - refusing the Chancellor of the Exchequer a bank account no less www.ft.com/content/91f4e6fb-1ddd-4dd4-a0b9-1fa8b988658a

Some more examples here on religious grounds www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/27/muslim-leaders-decry-double-standard-of-farage-bank-account-closure-furore

Plus a couple of examples from Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle bottom of the same article.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton

The Tory party banks with Santander.

Did Miller's party try them?

I think you are getting a little confused on the facts here.

You're confusing "struggling to find a bank among a small cohort of niche specialist banks" with "struggling to find a bank".

I'm genuinely bemused at how some folk overplay a story.

[Branton Red]

Branton

The Tory party banks with Santander.

Did Miller's party try them?

I think you are getting a little confused on the facts here.

You're confusing "struggling to find a bank among a small cohort of niche specialist banks" with "struggling to find a bank".

I'm genuinely bemused at how some folk overplay a story.

Billy

Please provide evidence that Miller's party was only looking for banking services amongst "niche specialist banks".

When being turned down by TEN separate banks.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton

Please provide evidence that she tried banks that all the other political parties bank with without problem, and I'll join you on the barricades.

[Branton Red]

Thought not.

Probably best not to belittle other people's opinions and claim they're confused about the "facts" before then wholly making up "facts" to support your own views in the very next breath!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton


Do you REALLY think Miller has gone to banks that take the accounts of other parties and been told to do one?

The reason I strongly suspect she was fishing around niche little shi-shi banks is because that was the sort of bank that she had banked with, before the bank realised they'd taken on a political party's account against their own policies.

I'm fascinated in what you think is the issue here.

[ravenrover]

2 people have problems with their banks and it's headline news, Govt involved, people losing their jobs. Farages boss makes a killing selling short after all the hype mmmmm!
Is there anything else in the news  or not, that perhaps the Govt could be involved in to be headline news and where heads might roll ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here we go.

This is what it's really all about.

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1685200188741185536?s=20

Just close your eyes and imagine the Cabinet meetings.

Braverman, Sunak, Shapps and a dozen non-entities you've never heard of all shouting "Down with Woke Capitalism" from spittle-flecked mouths because they have literally no other idea what to do about actually...y'know...running the country.

[Branton Red]

Branton

Do you REALLY think Miller has gone to banks that take the accounts of other parties and been told to do one?

The reason I strongly suspect she was fishing around niche little shi-shi banks is because that was the sort of bank that she had banked with, before the bank realised they'd taken on a political party's account against their own policies.

I'm fascinated in what you think is the issue here.

I think you're getting a little confused on the difference between fact and supposition.

A baseless supposition as it happens.

Monzo is hardly a "niche little shi-shi bank". It has 7.5 million customers in the UK and is the UK's 7th largest bank in terms of customer numbers (it was the 10th bank Miller's party applied to join).

www.finder.com/uk/monzo-statistics

[wilts rover]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/28/gina-miller-true-and-fair-party-monzo-bank-account

And another. Gina Miller this time. Interested to hear your thoughts Billy and Wilts.

She's gone to the wrong bank and opened up an account with another bank. It's what they story says!

Just like Farage. They closed one account because he wasn't putting enough money into it - and offered him another. That he didn't like because anyone could have one and he doesn't want to bank with the same bank ordinary people bank with.

[wilts rover]

It's all woke I tell you:

https://www.indy100.com/news/nigel-farage-newsnight-coutts-bank

[wilts rover]

And a thread on Farage's company accounts - showing he doesn't have enough money to qualify for a Coutts account? Or if he does it is not being declared as income so...

https://twitter.com/Frances_Coppola/status/1685291951405350912

Still if some people wish to believe prejudice and opinion over facts, figures and economics, what can you say.

[drfchound]

It is horrendous that peoples banking details are published in the public domain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton

Do you REALLY think Miller has gone to banks that take the accounts of other parties and been told to do one?

The reason I strongly suspect she was fishing around niche little shi-shi banks is because that was the sort of bank that she had banked with, before the bank realised they'd taken on a political party's account against their own policies.

I'm fascinated in what you think is the issue here.

I think you're getting a little confused on the difference between fact and supposition.

A baseless supposition as it happens.

Monzo is hardly a "niche little shi-shi bank". It has 7.5 million customers in the UK and is the UK's 7th largest bank in terms of customer numbers (it was the 10th bank Miller's party applied to join).

www.finder.com/uk/monzo-statistics

Fair play. I'd never heard of it. Looking into it, it does seem a little odd that it claims to have the business of 1 in every 10 men, women and infants in the country, but with an operating profit of about £20 per customer.

I assumed it was a small, specialist business bank. But I should have checked. My mistake.

That doesn't in any way change my central point. That every single other political party in the country manages to find a bank that will take their business, so the idea that we are falling into a black hole of anti-democratic practice is stretching it a fraction.

[Branton Red]

Billy

Thanks for that correction. You might be right that there is a legitimate reason why Miller's party was rejected by 10 banks.

Their may be a legitimate reason behind the banks decisions in all the instances I and others have outlined on this thread - and several others that the media have uncovered since this story broke.

Given the apparent scale I'm concerned this isn't the case however and many non-public figures may be affected as well.

We'll find out I imagine in due course.

There is a common theme with many of the stories of bank closures in that the banks gave little notice period, there was no reasoning given for their decision and no right of appeal. Which is wrong regardless of the banks reasoning.

I believe having a bank account is a necessity in the modern world. Everybody, regardless of opinion, should have the right to a bank account. That banks are providing a public service under licence from the state. Therefore banks should not have the right to reject customers because they disagree with their views.

Having a bank account closed is a major inconvenience and I imagine could be stressful and embarrassing.

If banks are closing Accounts due to disagreeing with people's views * this would discourage people from entering politics, remaining in politics, campaigning on issues or simply airing their views.

You're welcome to be sceptical (you may be proven right) but you appear to me to be simply dismissive (inc coming up with excuses for the banks). Is that because this story has broken from the Right of politics? As for me this is a non-partisan issue.

* And the instance involving the vicar and YBS (reply 7) shows this has and therefore can happen.