Referees Assessors and their Reports

[Donnywolf]

I once got access to 2 different ones from a lower Tier of Pyramid and was totally fascinated by them as they were simply compiled by someone who appeared to be very knowledgeable and independent and appeared to "care"


However I can't find any and wonder if they are available anywhere as reading them would be revealing to say the least


However I suspect that , like controversial Penalties , or hand balls or offsides are not shown the Reports themselves will remain "hidden away / secret". I can just imagine Tommy Rowe gets a Red Card , we fight a rearguard action to claim a Point and Ref gets slated by Assessor for getting it wrong ( in the Assessors opinion. For all I know he might have said Ref got it right)


I would like to see what Assessor said re Yellow Cards and clearly identifying which players got them at what point in the game


I would also like to see Assessors view of the potential 2nd Yellow for their Number 2 and how the Ref (imo) deliberately went to the wrong Player rather than send the 2 off


So are they published , can we get them or could they be available under freedom of information system


All no no no I guess

[Dagenham Rover]

I would also like to see Assessors view of the potential 2nd Yellow for their Number 2 and how the Ref (imo) deliberately went to the wrong Player rather than send the 2 off


So are they published , can we get them or could they be available under freedom of information system


All no no no I guess

That was our opinion as well deliberately went and spoke to the wrong player

[Spilsby Red]

My lad has seen it reported Austin got two yellow cards but stayed on pitch.

[Donnywolf]

No question in my mind. He blatantly went to wrong bloke IMHO

Even then when he had just been throwing Cards out for everything it was interesting he didn't give his " fake" fouled a Card

Perhaps he thought if he did he would have to explain why if Swindon had complained

I have never seen anything like that. Complete p*** take
 
If 2 walked we would be 11 v 10.

[Donnywolf]

My lad has seen it reported Austin got two yellow cards but stayed on pitch.

Press guys were going mad trying to.find who got Carded Austin or Khan and decided it was Khan

THAT again lies with the useless Referee because he has a duty to.make it clear to Players and watchers WHO is getting the Card

Also some were saying Westbrook was incorrectly Carded when it should have been Tommy 10

[tyke1962]

Whilst I find the standard of refereeing today let's say problematic I also believe there are reasons for this that are largely not discussed .

The starting point for young referees is local and junior football .

There are many incidents that have occured repeatedly over the last 15 years possibly even longer where these young referees are subjected to assaults , threats and intimidation by parents or even officials of these junior clubs .

As a consequence many many people are put off from learning their trade and progressing up the pyramid .

If the pool of potential referees becomes smaller then in my opinion the standard will suffer .

 

[Donnywolf]

Good point tyke as usual

This bloke had a nightmare mostly of his own making and I'm like a broken record as I repeat I have never seen such a bizarre incident as deliberately going to the wrong player. He knew , he absolutely knew

That's 2 games where opposition players have not picked up second Yellows for quite clear calculated fouls

OK we never know if the result would have been altered in either but I would sooner be 11 v 10 *

* except Barnsley v Rovers and Cambell-Rice game lol

[danumdon]

Like in every walk of life people get things wrong and have to take the consequences. Except it seems in football where the adjudicator on the field has to be seen to have never done anything wrong!

Its not normal and is contrary to everything we hold as being worthwhile in life, you do something wrong, you get a bollocking and you attempt to not do it again, in effect learning from your mistakes.

In the referees case its never apparent if they have had a dressing down for poor performance, it sometimes creeps out through the grapevine that a certain ref has been demoted or stood down. I'm quite sure that most reasonable people would have sympathy for refs if and when they hold their hands up and admit they got a situation wrong, its a natural thing in life and people are mostly responsible enough to admit this.

This can of worms needs to become accountable, in this day and age there is far too much at stake for the rank poor decision made by these people, resulting in loss of jobs, revenues and relegation's galore.

If i mess up at work i would be under no illusion that i would be getting hauled over the coals for it, actions plans in place and performance reviews til the cows come home in the hope that the "issue" had been rectified and dealt with correctly.

When are these jokers going to enter the real world?

[danumdon]

Whilst I find the standard of refereeing today let's say problematic I also believe there are reasons for this that are largely not discussed .

The starting point for young referees is local and junior football .

There are many incidents that have occured repeatedly over the last 15 years possibly even longer where these young referees are subjected to assaults , threats and intimidation by parents or even officials of these junior clubs .

As a consequence many many people are put off from learning their trade and progressing up the pyramid .

If the pool of potential referees becomes smaller then in my opinion the standard will suffer .

 

Id say that their are far too many of the wrong type of personalities attempting to make a career in being a ref.

I don't know if they have any sort of suitability or psychometric testing but they really should, its very apparent that a great many Refs today do not have the mental fortitude to be successful in this field.

Some of the dross we have to put up with in the lower leagues is unbelievably poor to outright incompetent.

I remember a lad i went to school with, he became a ref, he was rubbish at football and could not get in the school team for love nor money, i'm thinking he took up referring to get his own back on a game that he considered treated him harshly. In effect the totally wrong reason to be anywhere near a football field, this type of weak willed individuals need rooting out for the overall good of everyone else involved in the game.

[Colin C No.3]

Aren’t 10 minute ‘sin bins’ now being trialled from tier 7 of the EFL downwards?

[roversdude]

It’s been in a while Colin for dissent

[Reg of the Rovers]

I agree with Danum Don about the type of person who wants to be a ref. Most refs tend to have some sort of god-complex / arrogance, and using the ref on Saturday as an example I would suggest love being the centre of attention and holding the power over all these people. As Plato says - those who seek power shouldn't be allowed to have it.

The game would be infinitely improved by a pathway for ex-footballers from the lower leagues becoming officials, and keeping 'characters' like Mike Dean well away from the game.

[Avsuptem]

I agree with Danum Don about the type of person who wants to be a ref. Most refs tend to have some sort of god-complex / arrogance, and using the ref on Saturday as an example I would suggest love being the centre of attention and holding the power over all these people. As Plato says - those who seek power shouldn't be allowed to have it.

The game would be infinitely improved by a pathway for ex-footballers from the lower leagues becoming officials, and keeping 'characters' like Mike Dean well away from the game.

Whereas i dont argue with Danum's observation the dillema is that this belief is integral to Tyke's point about newly innaugurated refs leaving because of the appaling threats and abuse received from the Sunday morning spectators and the Pep Guardiola wannabes on the sidelines.I believe most refs do the training out of love of the game and good honest intent. They make mistakes as everybody does in all walks of life not to mention the players on the pich but are dissproportionally abused and insulted for it. Most newly qualified refs finish up thinking i don't need this for 20 Quid a game and give up. The result is a diminished pool of talent to gain experience and train  upto higher levels. I feel some sympathy for Saturday's ref, partly because I have made the same mistake myself in the past and carded the wrong player. At league level though these are the sort of mistakes they should be experienced and competent enough not to make.

[ravenrover]

But have you made the same mistake several times in a game?

[Avsuptem]

But have you made the same mistake several times in a game?

Only the once, as far as I know.

May be the Plato quote about only those who do not seek power being qualified to hold it explains a lot. One could argue that  the refs who are thick skinned enough to survive the junior phase are all Hitleresque personality types in which case the answer would be to take further steps to eliminate the dogs abuse meted out to newly qualified  refs so that more mentally
normal ones remain in the sport and gain competence.  The next step would be to psychologically assess those identified as capable to graduate to senior level.
Condemning all refs as having a tendancy towards psychopathy  probably doesn't help.

[Reg of the Rovers]

Good points Avsuptem. I think it becomes a vicious circle in that case - as who would want to put up abhorrent behaviour apart from someone who can derive some pleasure from that?

I still believe the fundamental issue with refereeing is the disconnect between the game and officiating - even at park and junior football I would suggest most refs haven't played properly and so don't understand the reality of the game beyond the rulebook and also can lack credibility relatability as a result. which creates an us v them culture which puts football people off from joining the 'other side'. 

That being said, no referee deserves any level of abuse - particularly those giving up their time to ensure lads and lasses across the country get a game on a Sat or Sunday morning.   

[Mike_F]

I'm just going through the referee qualification process so I can help out at my oldest lad's Sunday league games. We often struggle to find a ref so I thought I may as well do the course so I can help them and up my fitness levels. I'd like to think I've watched enough football to know what I'm doing but I will certainly make a few mistakes and I hope that doesn't lead to too much vitriol from the sidelines.

Having recently completed the online learning and assessment part I can safely say that by the letter of the law Tommy Rowe shouldn't have been sent off. There is a section of the course all about high boot offences and it shows sebveral videos with explanations of/questions on the correct punishment. I would've deemed Rowe to be careless rather than reckless or dangerous. He had his eye on the ball and was looking to control it without care for any other players who may have been around. A careless high boot is an indirect free kick and no card.

If you really wanted to argue the case for it being reckless as he made contact with the Swindon player that would be a yellow card offence. It certainly wasn't violent, dangerous or out of control enough to warrant a straight red.

[sf9944]

Interesting that Mike. Thanks for posting. It was evident from very early on in the game on Saturday that the ref wanted it to be ‘all about him’. Personally I can deal with ineptitude but can’t abide the type of ref that wants to be centre of attention.

[danumdon]

I agree with Danum Don about the type of person who wants to be a ref. Most refs tend to have some sort of god-complex / arrogance, and using the ref on Saturday as an example I would suggest love being the centre of attention and holding the power over all these people. As Plato says - those who seek power shouldn't be allowed to have it.

The game would be infinitely improved by a pathway for ex-footballers from the lower leagues becoming officials, and keeping 'characters' like Mike Dean well away from the game.

Whereas i dont argue with Danum's observation the dillema is that this belief is integral to Tyke's point about newly innaugurated refs leaving because of the appaling threats and abuse received from the Sunday morning spectators and the Pep Guardiola wannabes on the sidelines.I believe most refs do the training out of love of the game and good honest intent. They make mistakes as everybody does in all walks of life not to mention the players on the pich but are dissproportionally abused and insulted for it. Most newly qualified refs finish up thinking i don't need this for 20 Quid a game and give up. The result is a diminished pool of talent to gain experience and train  upto higher levels. I feel some sympathy for Saturday's ref, partly because I have made the same mistake myself in the past and carded the wrong player. At league level though these are the sort of mistakes they should be experienced and competent enough not to make.

But have you made the same mistake several times in a game?

Only the once, as far as I know.

May be the Plato quote about only those who do not seek power being qualified to hold it explains a lot. One could argue that  the refs who are thick skinned enough to survive the junior phase are all Hitleresque personality types in which case the answer would be to take further steps to eliminate the dogs abuse meted out to newly qualified  refs so that more mentally
normal ones remain in the sport and gain competence.  The next step would be to psychologically assess those identified as capable to graduate to senior level.
Condemning all refs as having a tendancy towards psychopathy  probably doesn't help.

Interesting insight from someone with skin in the situation.

It's obviously not as easy as some would believe to control and officiate a football match and i do have sympathy for lower and none league officials who are subjected to dogs abuse, this should not be tolerated.

My point was trying to understand the mindset of an official like the one we had the misfortune to come up against on Saturday. Most rational people will always accept honest mistakes from a referee and just hope its a one off and will not affect the outcome of the match disproportionately. What we had to deal with was a team of officials (because it was not just the ref but his assistants too) who looked for all the world like they would continue to make mistake after mistake all match.

This to me is unacceptable, we need officials who are consistent in their approach to a game, not consistently bad as in this case.

I would imagine if the assessment process for the management of officials competence is as robust and meaningful as it should be then in this case this group of officials should be getting some serious feedback from their assessors about what a complete abortion they made of this match.

I'm not holding my breath but if some sort of remedial actions are not forthcoming for these people then to me the whole process is weak, not relevant and unfit for purpose.

An appeal from our club to the injustice metered out to TR should be the minimum we should expect, followed by an apology from their management to the club for the adverse reaction that their staff impacted upon a game of football that looked to me like it was going to become our first league win of the season.

I'd imagine that GM and CB are still livid about this outcome.

[scawsby steve]

Good points Avsuptem. I think it becomes a vicious circle in that case - as who would want to put up abhorrent behaviour apart from someone who can derive some pleasure from that?

I still believe the fundamental issue with refereeing is the disconnect between the game and officiating - even at park and junior football I would suggest most refs haven't played properly and so don't understand the reality of the game beyond the rulebook and also can lack credibility relatability as a result. which creates an us v them culture which puts football people off from joining the 'other side'. 

That being said, no referee deserves any level of abuse - particularly those giving up their time to ensure lads and lasses across the country get a game on a Sat or Sunday morning.

Interesting second paragraph there, Reg, and much of it is probably true.

However, it's worth noting that Howard Webb and Michael Oliver, two of the best professional refs ever, both began reffing in their teens, so it's doubtful they ever played much football.

It's probably also significant that both their fathers were long established refs.

[keyser_soze]

Did Andy Butler give up refereeing? Always thought he would be ideally placed to go far in that game.

[colfromdonny]

You need to remember that referees need to get themselves 'noticed' to progress to the higher levels and they usually do this by being inordinately 'firm!'

[Filo]

I suppose a Freedom of Information request mightyeild results

[Donnywolf]

They aren't listed among the hundreds of Organisstions I've looked at  but I have emailed to ask a few Questions of EFL

I'm of the opinion though that they will keep assessments under wraps in same way Grounds can't show contentious decisions so envisage a sorry we don't publish them letter soon

[ian1980]

I'm just going through the referee qualification process so I can help out at my oldest lad's Sunday league games. We often struggle to find a ref so I thought I may as well do the course so I can help them and up my fitness levels. I'd like to think I've watched enough football to know what I'm doing but I will certainly make a few mistakes and I hope that doesn't lead to too much vitriol from the sidelines.

Having recently completed the online learning and assessment part I can safely say that by the letter of the law Tommy Rowe shouldn't have been sent off. There is a section of the course all about high boot offences and it shows sebveral videos with explanations of/questions on the correct punishment. I would've deemed Rowe to be careless rather than reckless or dangerous. He had his eye on the ball and was looking to control it without care for any other players who may have been around. A careless high boot is an indirect free kick and no card.

If you really wanted to argue the case for it being reckless as he made contact with the Swindon player that would be a yellow card offence. It certainly wasn't violent, dangerous or out of control enough to warrant a straight red.

Good luck with that Mike. I did the referee qualification for the same reason to help my sons team out.

Hope you enjoy it but it is a bit more stressful than you’d thing, especially the older they get.

Have fun.