When a Government...

[belton rover]

You know I've been saying for years that this Govt has absolutely zero to offer but Culture War and they will go all out to stir it up?

You know how it always sounds like I'm exaggerating for effect...until you look at what they are actually doing?

Get this one. Sunak today has used these words in a meeting with senior police leaders.

"There is a growing consensus that mob rule is replacing democratic rule...I am going to do whatever it requires to protect our democracy and our values that we all hold dear."

Christ. What have we become? Haiti? Zimbabwe? Barnsley?

Funny thing is, I've been to Manchester and back with work today. The trains ran. Someone got up to offer their seat to an old woman. There weren't many gangs of anti-democratic rioters running up Oxford Road and Deansgate. But apparently the Mob is going to destroy our democracy.

Do you reckon they think no-one in the country ever goes out?

Alan Partridge into his dictaphone:
Idea for a new show: ‘Billy Goes Out’.  We follow Billy on his daily journeys. It could be a train ride, a bus trip or even a walk in the park. If Billy comes back unscathed, we then inform the Prime Minister that all is well.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

[drfchound]

I’m sure I have read on here that the UK was being likened to 1930’s Germany because of this government.

Bump.

[tyke1962]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

Well when we've seen two MP's brutally murdered by extremists in the last 10 years and  MPs are now running a gauntlet of hate should they find themselves around Parliament Square perhaps some of these claims have meat on the bones .

Although it's nowt as bad as Barnsley town centre this afternoon , frightening scenes .

https://youtu.be/WCDJgWwzftU?si=LI2qGhIA2xWlpdEC

[Bentley Bullet]

I misheard Sunak. I thought he was referring to when Starmer took office and we would be descending into "knob rule."

[drfchound]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

Well when we've seen two MP's brutally murdered by extremists in the last 10 years and  MPs are now running a gauntlet of hate should they find themselves around Parliament Square perhaps some of these claims have meat on the bones .

Although it's nowt as bad as Barnsley town centre this afternoon , frightening scenes .

https://youtu.be/WCDJgWwzftU?si=LI2qGhIA2xWlpdEC

Tyke, MPs are getting groups of protesters haranguing them at their own front doors these days.
That can’t be allowed.

[tyke1962]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

Well when we've seen two MP's brutally murdered by extremists in the last 10 years and  MPs are now running a gauntlet of hate should they find themselves around Parliament Square perhaps some of these claims have meat on the bones .

Although it's nowt as bad as Barnsley town centre this afternoon , frightening scenes .

https://youtu.be/WCDJgWwzftU?si=LI2qGhIA2xWlpdEC

Tyke, MPs are getting groups of protesters haranguing them at their own front doors these days.
That can’t be allowed.

It's a very worrying situation Hound , the continued radicalisation of the left since this conflict began in Israel and Gaza and we've seen when Jo Cox was murdered what can happen with the Far Right .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

Well when we've seen two MP's brutally murdered by extremists in the last 10 years and  MPs are now running a gauntlet of hate should they find themselves around Parliament Square perhaps some of these claims have meat on the bones .

Although it's nowt as bad as Barnsley town centre this afternoon , frightening scenes .

https://youtu.be/WCDJgWwzftU?si=LI2qGhIA2xWlpdEC

Then get on with the job of ensuring security for politicians. I agree 100% that needs doing and I don't need lecturing on that topic, unlike some in here who think that is part of their job.

What I don't accept is the ridiculous extrapolation from that specific issue to a claim that our entire system is under threat from mob rule. It's a huge exaggeration by a PM who is stoking Culture War flames at every single opportunity.

[drfchound]

Did Sunak say that the entire system is under threat from mob rule.
I don’t think he did go that far.

[belton rover]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

Like you, I don’t witness mob rule whenever I leave my front door. That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems in our society. I don’t agree with Sunak when he uses the term ‘general consensus’ but he is right to include his concerns to a wider scale.
I also believe that if Starmer made a speech about the country going to the dogs democratically and voicing concerns about mob rule and such like, in a bid to win over some more voters, you’d be right behind him.
Instead, this is is just another example of you losing credibility as your obsession hurtles towards the general election.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And you're back to telling me what you reckon I think. How many times?

[belton rover]

And you're back to telling me what you reckon I think. How many times?

I’m giving my opinion Billy. Just like you thought I might not have one on the subject.
Let’s not turn this into something else, eh?

I’ll tell you what, I’ll take back the bit you don’t like and I’ll ask you instead.
If Starmer had said it, would you be on here ridiculing him?

[SydneyRover]

Is anyone seriously doubting that the government are whipping up the 'mob rule' agenda? Women in most cases are not worried about being attacked or abused by other women. I think women are vulnerable by the prehistoric attitudes of some men, just look at the relevant headlines in the previous 24 hrs, or the attitudes of johnson and cummings. Also some of those that post rubbish about women in their blokey, blokey way and then abuse any that point it out.

[tyke1962]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

Well when we've seen two MP's brutally murdered by extremists in the last 10 years and  MPs are now running a gauntlet of hate should they find themselves around Parliament Square perhaps some of these claims have meat on the bones .

Although it's nowt as bad as Barnsley town centre this afternoon , frightening scenes .

https://youtu.be/WCDJgWwzftU?si=LI2qGhIA2xWlpdEC

Then get on with the job of ensuring security for politicians. I agree 100% that needs doing and I don't need lecturing on that topic, unlike some in here who think that is part of their job.

What I don't accept is the ridiculous extrapolation from that specific issue to a claim that our entire system is under threat from mob rule. It's a huge exaggeration by a PM who is stoking Culture War flames at every single opportunity.

It disturbs me greatly when the Speaker Of The House has to undertake unprecedented measures because he fears for the safety of MP's .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68369143

Now whilst that in itself doesn't mean our democracy is now at the mercy of mobs on the streets it's none the less an extremely serious and worrying and even at last week's level a step way too far .

I'll tell you this for nowt Billy and you can come back at me all you want but it won't change my mind .

Last week's events have resonated with many people in this country , normal , working people and my instinct tells me the current political class have run out of road with the people .

Someone will fill that space .

I'm not here to score points with you and that's a promise .

The Liberal Class are going to be in huge trouble .

Slightly different thing but none the less , think 1970's trade unions , think the country got sick and tired of it , think what happened in the 80's .

Trump will probably be elected in the US , the  EU Parliament will have even more right wing MP's , Germany is moving more to the Right , Netherlands , Italy , the huge problems they've had in Sweden and Denmark .

The Labour government is going to be overwhelmed with problems , the Conservatives are probably done for , perhaps for ever .

The space will simply open up .

The Right is on the march and I don't see how they will be stopped .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton, with respect, you're asking me a meaningless question.

One of the reasons I prefer Labour to this generation  of the Tories is that, generally, the farmer's leaders DON'T make ridiculous comments like this one.[1]

You're asking me what my response would be in an entity hypothetical situation, because, generally, Starmer doesn't make comments that are anywhere close to the level of exaggeration on such a potentially explosive subject that Sunak has just done.

If he did, then absolutely, yes I would call it out. Starmer has said one simply wrong thing recently, that we have maxed out the nation's credit card under the Tories. That's simply wrong and I've no hesitation in saying so. But that specific comment isn't going to throw petrol on the flames of a simmering culture war. It's using the Tories' own (wrong) criticism of Labour 15 years ago to neutralise their (wrong) criticisms of Labour's own policies. I don't like it and I really wish he hadn't said it, but that's a world away from announcing that democracy itself is in danger.

[1] When Labour leaders HAVE said things that are dangerously stupid in the past, I've absolutely condemned them. The most egregious one in the past decade was Corbyn actually standing up in Parliament and saying we should work in collaboration with the FSB to find out the truth of the Salisbury poisonings. Absolutely insane, either from naive stupidity, or malign intent.

You don't need to guess for yourself how I think. Read what I actually say.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Go on. What were these epoch changing events last week?

Was the Cabinet taken hostage and assassinated?

Was there a coup d'etat that I slept through?

Did terrorists kill 1,000 people in a shopping centre?

What is it that's got you and your mates so wound up?

[belton rover]

Belton, with respect, you're asking me a meaningless question.

One of the reasons I prefer Labour to this generation  of the Tories is that, generally, the farmer's leaders DON'T make ridiculous comments like this one.[1]

You're asking me what my response would be in an entity hypothetical situation, because, generally, Starmer doesn't make comments that are anywhere close to the level of exaggeration on such a potentially explosive subject that Sunak has just done.

If he did, then absolutely, yes I would call it out. Starmer has said one simply wrong thing recently, that we have maxed out the nation's credit card under the Tories. That's simply wrong and I've no hesitation in saying so. But that specific comment isn't going to throw petrol on the flames of a simmering culture war. It's using the Tories' own (wrong) criticism of Labour 15 years ago to neutralise their (wrong) criticisms of Labour's own policies. I don't like it and I really wish he hadn't said it, but that's a world away from announcing that democracy itself is in danger.

[1] When Labour leaders HAVE said things that are dangerously stupid in the past, I've absolutely condemned them. The most egregious one in the past decade was Corbyn actually standing up in Parliament and saying we should work in collaboration with the FSB to find out the truth of the Salisbury poisonings. Absolutely insane, either from naive stupidity, or malign intent.

You don't need to guess for yourself how I think. Read what I actually say.
[/

Belton, with respect, you're asking me a meaningless question.

One of the reasons I prefer Labour to this generation  of the Tories is that, generally, the farmer's leaders DON'T make ridiculous comments like this one.[1]

You're asking me what my response would be in an entity hypothetical situation, because, generally, Starmer doesn't make comments that are anywhere close to the level of exaggeration on such a potentially explosive subject that Sunak has just done.

If he did, then absolutely, yes I would call it out. Starmer has said one simply wrong thing recently, that we have maxed out the nation's credit card under the Tories. That's simply wrong and I've no hesitation in saying so. But that specific comment isn't going to throw petrol on the flames of a simmering culture war. It's using the Tories' own (wrong) criticism of Labour 15 years ago to neutralise their (wrong) criticisms of Labour's own policies. I don't like it and I really wish he hadn't said it, but that's a world away from announcing that democracy itself is in danger.

[1] When Labour leaders HAVE said things that are dangerously stupid in the past, I've absolutely condemned them. The most egregious one in the past decade was Corbyn actually standing up in Parliament and saying we should work in collaboration with the FSB to find out the truth of the Salisbury poisonings. Absolutely insane, either from naive stupidity, or malign intent.

You don't need to guess for yourself how I think. Read what I actually say.

This is one area where you and I think entirely differently. Because you believe that all Sunak and the Tories have left is the culture war, you read things - as you’ve done here - and make them fit into your beliefs (to clarify, this is just my opinion based on years and years and years of condemnation from you of pretty much everything Tory)

I read what Sunak said and thought, a bit exaggerated, but you’ve got a point.

I don’t think what Sunak said was any of the things you’ve described, which is why I believe Starmer could and would say something similar, especially if he thought it would win some votes.

Using Corbyn’s FSB comments in relation to what we are talking about here to somehow show an impartiality to calling out all sides, is bizarre.

[BillyStubbsTears]

1) I used Corbyn's example because a) it was an utterly stupid thing to say which, if acted on could only weaken Britain and b) it gave an insight into motives.

In that sense, it has a good correlation with what Sunak said. Sunak's words are stupidly dangerous in that they exaggerate a tense but manageable situation and can if acted on cause more problems for Britain, and b) they give an insight into motives - in this case they fit a pattern of the Tories actively wanting to stir up inter-community anymosity. See for example what Braverman and other have been saying about "no-go areas" (which don't exist) or the Rwanda farrago, or the continued hammering on about "Woke". It's very much in the Tories' electoral interest to have their supporters scared of societal changes, and to stir up that fear.

2) You believe Starmer could and would say similar things. He's been in position for 4 years. Surely you could find some examples, rather than guessing what he might do? Or, alternatively, how long does he have to NOT say similar things before you change your mind.

3) Shouldn't need saying but it does. IF Starmer said similar things, I would condemn it unreservedly, as I did when Labour published that disgusting poster about Sunak not caring about rapists. Note the response from senior Labour politicians when that came out. There was strong pushback and the theme was never repeated. Where's the similar pushback on the multiple Tory moves to emphasise Culture War issues?

[belton rover]

1) I used Corbyn's example because a) it was an utterly stupid thing to say which, if acted on could only weaken Britain and b) it gave an insight into motives.

In that sense, it has a good correlation with what Sunak said. Sunak's words are stupidly dangerous in that they exaggerate a tense but manageable situation and can if acted on cause more problems for Britain, and b) they give an insight into motives - in this case they fit a pattern of the Tories actively wanting to stir up inter-community anymosity. See for example what Braverman and other have been saying about "no-go areas" (which don't exist) or the Rwanda farrago, or the continued hammering on about "Woke". It's very much in the Tories' electoral interest to have their supporters scared of societal changes, and to stir up that fear.

2) You believe Starmer could and would say similar things. He's been in position for 4 years. Surely you could find some examples, rather than guessing what he might do? Or, alternatively, how long does he have to NOT say similar things before you change your mind.

3) Shouldn't need saying but it does. IF Starmer said similar things, I would condemn it unreservedly, as I did when Labour published that disgusting poster about Sunak not caring about rapists. Note the response from senior Labour politicians when that came out. There was strong pushback and the theme was never repeated. Where's the similar pushback on the multiple Tory moves to emphasise Culture War issues?

You’re missing my point.
I don’t think Starmer would say something stupidly dangerous.
I don’t think what Sunak said was stupidly dangerous.

[wilts rover]

1) I used Corbyn's example because a) it was an utterly stupid thing to say which, if acted on could only weaken Britain and b) it gave an insight into motives.

In that sense, it has a good correlation with what Sunak said. Sunak's words are stupidly dangerous in that they exaggerate a tense but manageable situation and can if acted on cause more problems for Britain, and b) they give an insight into motives - in this case they fit a pattern of the Tories actively wanting to stir up inter-community anymosity. See for example what Braverman and other have been saying about "no-go areas" (which don't exist) or the Rwanda farrago, or the continued hammering on about "Woke". It's very much in the Tories' electoral interest to have their supporters scared of societal changes, and to stir up that fear.

2) You believe Starmer could and would say similar things. He's been in position for 4 years. Surely you could find some examples, rather than guessing what he might do? Or, alternatively, how long does he have to NOT say similar things before you change your mind.

3) Shouldn't need saying but it does. IF Starmer said similar things, I would condemn it unreservedly, as I did when Labour published that disgusting poster about Sunak not caring about rapists. Note the response from senior Labour politicians when that came out. There was strong pushback and the theme was never repeated. Where's the similar pushback on the multiple Tory moves to emphasise Culture War issues?

You’re missing my point.
I don’t think Starmer would say something stupidly dangerous.
I don’t think what Sunak said was stupidly dangerous.

Do you not think that 'words matter' as many MP's, including Sunak, have said recently?
Do you not think that verbal attacks on a community as Sunak did have any connection to physical attacks on that community?

[belton rover]

1) I used Corbyn's example because a) it was an utterly stupid thing to say which, if acted on could only weaken Britain and b) it gave an insight into motives.

In that sense, it has a good correlation with what Sunak said. Sunak's words are stupidly dangerous in that they exaggerate a tense but manageable situation and can if acted on cause more problems for Britain, and b) they give an insight into motives - in this case they fit a pattern of the Tories actively wanting to stir up inter-community anymosity. See for example what Braverman and other have been saying about "no-go areas" (which don't exist) or the Rwanda farrago, or the continued hammering on about "Woke". It's very much in the Tories' electoral interest to have their supporters scared of societal changes, and to stir up that fear.

2) You believe Starmer could and would say similar things. He's been in position for 4 years. Surely you could find some examples, rather than guessing what he might do? Or, alternatively, how long does he have to NOT say similar things before you change your mind.

3) Shouldn't need saying but it does. IF Starmer said similar things, I would condemn it unreservedly, as I did when Labour published that disgusting poster about Sunak not caring about rapists. Note the response from senior Labour politicians when that came out. There was strong pushback and the theme was never repeated. Where's the similar pushback on the multiple Tory moves to emphasise Culture War issues?

You’re missing my point.
I don’t think Starmer would say something stupidly dangerous.
I don’t think what Sunak said was stupidly dangerous.

Do you not think that 'words matter' as many MP's, including Sunak, have said recently?
Do you not think that verbal attacks on a community as Sunak did have any connection to physical attacks on that community?

Of course I think words matter. Me thinking words matter often gets me into bother on here.

Do I think that what Sunak said is the reason, or part of the reason why people are are attacking each other?
Absolutely not.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Go on. What were these epoch changing events last week?

Was the Cabinet taken hostage and assassinated?

Was there a coup d'etat that I slept through?

Did terrorists kill 1,000 people in a shopping centre?

What is it that's got you and your mates so wound up?

Christ you've introduced more straw in to that post as there is in Willie Mullins stable .

I'm not wound up I'm concerned as any normal person should be .

[ncRover]

From bbc news

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said the prime minister was right to "advocate unity and to condemn the unacceptable and intimidatory behaviour that we have seen recently".

[tommy toes]

From bbc news

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said the prime minister was right to "advocate unity and to condemn the unacceptable and intimidatory behaviour that we have seen recently".

In other words, 'Sunak should have kept his stupid gob shut.'

[ncRover]

Tyke.

Go on. What were these epoch changing events last week?

Was the Cabinet taken hostage and assassinated?

Was there a coup d'etat that I slept through?

Did terrorists kill 1,000 people in a shopping centre?

What is it that's got you and your mates so wound up?

Nothing that meaningful obviously. But there had to have been threats last week. Unless you think your man Starmer lied? And that Hoyle had a meeting with the police over nothing or even made it up?

Hoyle and Sunak mentioned the far-right too, it would seem there has also been threats from those quarters.

You’ve brought it up yourself before Billy. Mike Freer MP of Golders Green (big Jewish community) stepped down because of threats of violence from the group Muslims Against Crusades. They reportedly called him a “Jewish Homosexual pig”. Said group were thought to have links to Amass’ killer.

Imagine being a Jewish MP inside Westminster while that slogan was beamed on to Big Ben.

Maybe Sunak is being hyperbolic or trying to use it to his advantage but that doesn’t mean that having concerns about the ability of democracy to be upheld in this country makes someone a culture war warrior.

[belton rover]

From bbc news

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said the prime minister was right to "advocate unity and to condemn the unacceptable and intimidatory behaviour that we have seen recently".

In other words, 'Sunak should have kept his stupid gob shut.'

Eh?

[roverstillidie91]

Very good Belton.

Being serious again for a moment, I don't doubt that some MPs are being harassed and perhaps even intimidated by protesters. That shouldn't happen and action should be taken in those instances.

The issue is, extrapolating from that to claim, as the PM did yesterday, that our democratic system is under assault from mob rule. Which is quite a claim from a PM of UK.

But maybe you don't have anything to add to that issue?

Well when we've seen two MP's brutally murdered by extremists in the last 10 years and  MPs are now running a gauntlet of hate should they find themselves around Parliament Square perhaps some of these claims have meat on the bones .

Although it's nowt as bad as Barnsley town centre this afternoon , frightening scenes .

https://youtu.be/WCDJgWwzftU?si=LI2qGhIA2xWlpdEC

Then get on with the job of ensuring security for politicians. I agree 100% that needs doing and I don't need lecturing on that topic, unlike some in here who think that is part of their job.

What I don't accept is the ridiculous extrapolation from that specific issue to a claim that our entire system is under threat from mob rule. It's a huge exaggeration by a PM who is stoking Culture War flames at every single opportunity.

It's all about the authoritarian approach to how they want the public and to give us no rights i.e. anti-strike bill, public order bill.

The SEZ's are the next step which have probably gone under the radar.  It's covered extensively on twitter and is even endorsed by Labour.

A slow trickle back to colonialism. ALL councils and public services will be privatized why do you think they are running all of the mentioned into the ground? Including the NHS etc.

https://twitter.com/EuropeanPowell

[MachoMadness]

The new Jess Phillips/Ruth Davidson podcast is interesting listening. Not two of my natural political allies, to say the least, but Phillips calls out the pearl clutching over this "mob rule" narrative. She correctly, in my view, argues that this "mob rule" narrative wasn't there when people were kicking off over Brexit, because most of the people who were angry then didn't have brown skin. Now the protestors are more diverse, suddenly we're worried about "the enemy within".

Back then, an MP was literally killed by a far right terrorist, and you still had Farage, Darren Grimes, et al talking about armed uprisings if the vote didn't go the way they wanted.

Maybe Sunak could start by looking at Braverman, who actually incited a violent protest at the Cenotaph, just as an example. The idea that George Galloway, who I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire in my toilet bowl, getting elected in a freak byelection warrants this kind of response, when you have a Tory party packed to the rafters with lunatics like Truss, Nick Fletcher, (until recently) Anderson, Braverman, and so on makes it clear what this is really about.

[SydneyRover]

Is this it MM?

''Electoral Dysfunction: 'People in this country feel nothing works': Is it time to go to the polls''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP_QlkTrkbU

[roverstillidie91]

Is this it MM?

''Electoral Dysfunction: 'People in this country feel nothing works': Is it time to go to the polls''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP_QlkTrkbU

The middle class is on the decline, people don't think it can happen but they've done the same to the poorest and they'll work their way up.

Time for change and a protest vote against the establishment.

And the economy will never gain any momentum back and we'll all be poorer for it.