Israel

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.

Shut up and take a look at yourself.

You've said hostage taking is a proportionate action. You've bent over backwards to justify gang rape and mutilation. You are bending over backwards to justify a clearly planned civilian massacre.

You are doing exactly what political extremists have done throughout the ages. Normalised and justified bestial actions.

You are repulsive.

What trash you speak. Please go back to your cowardly blocking of me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You don't treat gang rape and taking babies hostage by "contextualising" it.

It is wrong. It is morally abhorrent. No " Well, yeah, but ..."

I cannot believe this needs pointing out.

Actually, I can, given what you've "contextualised" in Ukraine.

[turnbull for england]

Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.


Your words verbatim. You  starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle  room . For that,  the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey  they've had it rough too

Away and shite man, you might write better than me  but  I'm glad I don't see what you do

The minute you query if rape is proportionate , the rest of it could be Nobel prize winning but I'm not reading it , you truly will defend the indefensible won't you.

wilts link shows how  confusing and difficult it is to " choose a side with the aims of both extremes seemingly unable to reach any sort of agreement, yet as long as it's the " oppressed " that's ok is it ?   

I'm defining "proportionate" as being in the ball park of doing something that has been done to yourself. And, as I said, even then it isn't justified, and I absolutely didn't say it was proportionate either - go back and read this time. I kinda left it hanging as to whether it was proportionate, under my defintion there, I don't know.

If for instance I was put in a room with the guy who abused me as a kid, I wouldn't like to think what I might do to him. I might go way past proportionate, but despite the whole situation, I still wouldn't feel it was justified. Understand?

[Bristol Red Rover]

You don't treat gang rape and taking babies hostage by "contextualising" it.

It is wrong. It is morally abhorrent. No " Well, yeah, but ..."

I cannot believe this needs pointing out.

Actually, I can, given what you've "contextualised" in Ukraine.

BST, a man without context.

[River Don]

The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.

I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.

Young people consuming alcohol, generally being immoral.

And islamic extremists have targeted music venues before. Ariana Grande in Manchester, The Bataclan in Paris.

[tommy toes]

Do you think the Hamas attacks which involved:

- mass murder of civilians
- gang rape
- executing babies
- taking hostages
- putting their own fellow Palestians at risk knowing there was going to be retaliation

Was justified, proportionate and what the oppressed fighting an oppressor looks like?

You can perfectly substitute Israel for Hamas there, can you see that? If so, why did you not make that point?

You missed out other salient aspects of the Hamas attack, including:
- taking weapons, ammo, armoured vehicles
- targetting military and police
- reclaiming Palestinian territory that Israel has occupied
- bombing the the occupied Israeli territory
- creating fear in an occupying force

I understand you are highlighting what you consider to be the bad aspects, but in that you skew the picture in not acknowledging that.

So, yes I think the murder of civilians is not justified, but is evidently proportionate.
Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.
Executing any civilian is never justified, though it is proportionate.
Taking hostages is justified and proportionate.
Putting Palestinians at risk knowing the reaction is more questionable, however Palestinians are always at risk, as you know - so your question is a little strange. Many, not all, Palestinians appear to accept this increased risk.

The oppressed fighting an oppressor - yes, it is a war, one started by Israel. The Hamas soldiers who made the attack have all experienced their friends and relatives being murdered by the state they were attacking. I'm sure their emotions were running high, extremely so, and it's no surprise attrocities happened. It is as you ask, what a war with the oppressed fighting the oppressor looks like.

What do you think?

I can't believe I've just read that, so I read it again.
Probably, no certainly the most sickening post I've ever read on here.
Hope you're proud of yersen.

When all this kicked off I was expecting it to be a strike by Hammas onto legitimate targets.

What they have actually done beggars belief and has completely turned the narrative away from the legitimate grievances they had.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.


Your words verbatim. You  starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle  room . For that,  the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey  they've had it rough too

Away and shite man, you might write better than me  but  I'm glad I don't see what you do

I state "never justified" - how much clearer do you need?

"Proportionate" is a separate issue. I explained that so very clearly. How do you define it? Tell me and I will speak within your definitions.

Allowing  a "reason" for something is about understanding it. It's not excusing it. It's not giving "wiggle room" except in your misunderstanding,, misinterpretation of what I said. You use an excuse of not being able to express yourself well  in claiming I said something that I didn't - that's a bit lazy don't you think?

Murdering and raping any civilians is wrong, simple. Do you think it's okay for Israel to do it?

[Bristol Red Rover]

I can't believe I've just read that, so I read it again.
Probably, no certainly the most sickening post I've ever read on here.
Hope you're proud of yersen.

When all this kicked off I was expecting it to be a strike by Hammas onto legitimate targets.

What they have actually done beggars belief and has completely turned the narrative away from the legitimate grievances they had.

Be specific. As you have left it, you haven't said anything.

[tommy toes]

OK, all the things that you said were proportionate or may be proportionate.
When they are all horrifying acts of barbarism.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.

I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.

And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.

It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.

The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.

[Bristol Red Rover]

OK, all the things that you said were proportionate or may be proportionate.
When they are all horrifying acts of barbarism.

I mean proportionate as "in proportion to what Israel does".

[MachoMadness]

BRR. You'll find few people on here more critical of Israel's apartheid than me but you can't be serious with some of this.

Hamas committed horrific war crimes. It's ok to say that and condemn it while also acknowledging Israel committed war crimes before and after this. There is a lot about this situation that is complex - this bit really shouldn't be.

[turnbull for england]

Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.


Your words verbatim. You  starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle  room . For that,  the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey  they've had it rough too

Away and shite man, you might write better than me  but  I'm glad I don't see what you do

I state "never justified" - how much clearer do you need?

"Proportionate" is a separate issue. I explained that so very clearly. How do you define it? Tell me and I will speak within your definitions.

Allowing  a "reason" for something is about understanding it. It's not excusing it. It's not giving "wiggle room" except in your misunderstanding,, misinterpretation of what I said. You use an excuse of not being able to express yourself well  in claiming I said something that I didn't - that's a bit lazy don't you think?

Murdering and raping any civilians is wrong, simple. Do you think it's okay for Israel to do it?

When things are in proportion, they are proportionate — their relative magnitudes are in balance and make sense the way they are. When the punishment fits the crime, it's proportionate.

So basically the festival goers were asking for it , proportionally. That's my definition of what you were saying.


Btw, I'll admit my post wasn't my best structured ever, but I actually meant it as a compliment. You are obviously  an educated man who I feel always writes well with strong held beliefs. Surely though you can see that if we all find what you put abhorrent, then the fault might not be ours

[River Don]

The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.

I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.

And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.

It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.

The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.

I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm being very, very careful what sites I look at at the moment. Some people on line who's word I trust say they have seen images and videos that they will never be able to scrub out of their minds.

Be careful. You have no idea what some of these images might do to your mental health.

[Bristol Red Rover]

When things are in proportion, they are proportionate — their relative magnitudes are in balance and make sense the way they are. When the punishment fits the crime, it's proportionate.

So basically the festival goers were asking for it , proportionally. That's my definition of what you were saying.


Btw, I'll admit my post wasn't my best structured ever, but I actually meant it as a compliment. You are obviously  an educated man who I feel always writes well with strong held beliefs. Surely though you can see that if we all find what you put abhorrent, then the fault might not be ours

Thanks for the reply
So re the festival, I said all that was wrong. I don't know how the details, and I don't know the details of the Israeli raping of Palestinians - so on that score, I don't know if that was proportionate.

And,

BRR. You'll find few people on here more critical of Israel's apartheid than me but you can't be serious with some of this.

Hamas committed horrific war crimes. It's ok to say that and condemn it while also acknowledging Israel committed war crimes before and after this. There is a lot about this situation that is complex - this bit really shouldn't be.

Definitely, 100%, I do think it was wrong, I condem it.

The murdering of the festival goers, wrong as I said, is well within the realm of proportional to what Israel has done.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.

I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.

And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.

It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.

The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.

I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.

Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.

[River Don]

The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.

I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.

And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.

It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.

The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.

I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.

Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.

And how do you know that?

There's a massive rave going on just over the wall, full of immoral young Jews Just a coincidence?

[ncRover]

Bristol, I hope you find a path in life that helps you to discover some form of moral compass.

You can complicate things all you like. But sometimes evil is there in plain sight.

In a roundabout way I think you answered yes to all my previous points. Here’s one that maybe can be a yes or no:

Do you believe that all of the land that is currently Israel should become the nation of Palestine? If so, what would you do with the Jewish population?

[wilts rover]

Raping is never justified, is it proptionate... I don't know the incidences, nor the reverse from Israel, but I have no doubt that has occured.


Your words verbatim. You  starts off never justified and then off you go down the rabbit hole , there's a but , a reason , wriggle  room . For that,  the most heinous of war crimes you will still allow a reason . . As with the most sophisticated attack Hamad have done in 30 years just happened to coincide with a missive festival right on border , just where they they were planning on invading, then hey boys will be boys when it comes to murdering party goers when then they get a bit carried away , cos hey  they've had it rough too

Away and shite man, you might write better than me  but  I'm glad I don't see what you do

I state "never justified" - how much clearer do you need?

"Proportionate" is a separate issue. I explained that so very clearly. How do you define it? Tell me and I will speak within your definitions.

Allowing  a "reason" for something is about understanding it. It's not excusing it. It's not giving "wiggle room" except in your misunderstanding,, misinterpretation of what I said. You use an excuse of not being able to express yourself well  in claiming I said something that I didn't - that's a bit lazy don't you think?

Murdering and raping any civilians is wrong, simple. Do you think it's okay for Israel to do it?

Is that all of Israel? Or just the Israeli Orthodox Christians? Or the Israeli Bahaist's? Or the Ethopian Jews? Or the Coptic Christains? Or the Israeli Druze? Or the Hasidic Jews? Or another grouping I haven't listed - there are many more?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Speechless at anyone attempting to justify the acts of Hamas.  Absolutely right to question some of Israel's actions, but that's zero justification for killing babies, children, oaps etc in their homes (and much worse than that happened too).

[wilts rover]

The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.

I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.

And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.

It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.

The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.

I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.

Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.

And how do you know that?

There's a massive rave going on just over the wall, full of immoral young Jews Just a coincidence?

Yes. It appears they had been practicing storming a town (kibbutz) and did to quite a number.

The festival being on was pure chance. It's more relevant that it was on the Shemini Atzeret holiday when travel was forbidden and security relaxed. It just happened to be an easy target in easy reach.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

[River Don]

The Supernova rave was a two day event, with an attendance of thousands. It looked well organised, it wasn't kids setting up an illegal party in the desert. It looks like an Israeli version of Burning Man in the States.

I would guess something like that would have been well promoted. Chances are it presented Hamas with an irresistible target.

And *maybe* it was deliberately targetted in the way it was? We don't know. Saying that it *was* planned to be targetted is misinformation, is demonising Hamas before knowing. The attack was planned on the holiday, not because there was a festival but because even doing it on that date will get at Israel, but moreso that they would likely be less prepared.

It's hard to think that Israel didn't know that this was planned. *If* so then the use of this as an excuse to attack Palestine is clear and evil. But we don't know this.

The clear deliberate targetting, that we know, was getting ammo, armour, weapons, and killing military and police, taking hostages, and giving Israelis some of the fear that Palestinians have constantly.

I didn't suggest it *was* the target. I'm suggesting in Hamas eyes it would have provided a juicy target.

Yep, for the murdering of civilians it would. And possibly the raping too? It's far far from the main aim of the attack.

And how do you know that?

There's a massive rave going on just over the wall, full of immoral young Jews Just a coincidence?

Yes. It appears they had been practicing storming a town (kibbutz) and did to quite a number.

The festival being on was pure chance. It's more relevant that it was on the Shemini Atzeret holiday when travel was forbidden and security relaxed. It just happened to be an easy target in easy reach.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

I can accept it wasn't the prime target, not the original objective. But I bet it affected the timing.

The Israelis are questioning how it was ever allowed.

[Filo]

We could well be on the brink of WW3, and Turkey a NATO member telling America to back off will not go down well with other NATO members

[River Don]

We could well be on the brink of WW3, and Turkey a NATO member telling America to back off will not go down well with other NATO members

Looking at the bigger picture,I think we're seeing a reaction to a sluggish economy. Things haven't been firing properly since 2007.

People become frustrated, more insular, look after number one. More right wing. And we can see right wing popullists gaining ground all over the place.

[SydneyRover]

The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.

Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.

[River Don]

The problem here is if Israel is allowed to go on an unchecked revenge killing spree of civilians in Gaza it will show that the west is no better and it drags us all into the swamp.

Support for the Ukraine will drop like a stone if it did the same as russia which is why putin tries desperately to show that it is.

Israel won't be satisfied until it has inflicted far more damage on Gaza in revenge. That's certain. Not least because they have their own bombastic rightwing leader.

[SydneyRover]

Israel always does the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't change the thrust of my comment, look at how brr tries to muddy the waters at every opportunity.

And the bigger problem is that it doesn't solve anything, look how long it has been going on.

Netanyahu sees that the only way he can stay out of jail is to retain office and has surrounded himself with a bunch of nutters.

[Sprotyrover]

Israel always does the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't change the thrust of my comment, look at how brr tries to muddy the waters at every opportunity.

They will not stop until they have rescued their people !

[SydneyRover]

Israel always does the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't change the thrust of my comment, look at how brr tries to muddy the waters at every opportunity.

They will not stop until they have rescued their people !

Or they are dead, again that doesn't change what I wrote.