Israel

[selby]

  Not many focussing on the siege that is being enacted and  the raids on targets of Hamas sympathisers in the West Bank and the border with Lebanon.  The hospital situation a you did it, no you did it subject , done dusted just a side track of the bigger picture. Israel are now being systematic with pointed attacks on both sides of the border, not committing major force that can inflame outside influences too much, but sorting out some of the groups that are a threat near the border.
   The only way out of it I can see is the Hamas biting the bullet and releasing any hostages they took and then the difficulty of them very numbers and how many might have been murdered in cold blood could become a bigger problem.
  It's a mess, but Israel are slowly taking control of the situation and hold the cards military wise.
  Meanwhile they are wearing the opposition down with lack of supplies and sleep with the bombardment.  It will go on for quite some time and while the US and Europe carry on backing Israel and the us aircraft carriers deployed I doubt the outside factions that would want to will make a major attack.
   At the moment Israel are playing the military game right inflicting damage without deployment of armed forces on the ground, something Hamas wanted while strong and the chance of backing from Iran, who in this situation as it is at the moment are being held in check.

[ncRover]

Not good enough MM

You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.

It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.

We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.

There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.

All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?

You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.

MM

Yet Corbyn went online within a couple of hours of the incident and screamed that it was an attack by Israel. He's had ample opportunity to withdraw that unqualified assertion and hasn't done.

Do I really need to point out the problem with that approach?

The tweet is still there.

He’s put another one out calling for a ceasefire the day after fanning the flames.

[albie]

Bob G is right to point out that an exit strategy is needed to this humanitarian tragedy.
Trouble is, those who could make this more likely are fanning the fire.

Decent coverage of the claims and counterclaims on Ch4 News about the hospital (one of many which have been attacked);
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

An interesting thread from Labour MP Andy McDonald on social media:
https://nitter.net/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1714575739918365131#m

Are you ready to explain your answer to the important question I put in post 286, BST?
A yes speaks loud enough, a no needs a bit more explanation....your workings!

Lot of unsupported emotive opinion in the links Albie, the fact that we have all been there, the difference being that some retract and or apologise.

There are some that have accused corbyn of being a terrorist (by association) and there are others that have tenuously tried to link Starmer to savile or breaking covid rules and most have not retracted nor apologised so I reckon that those trying to claim to be honest brokers in all this should maybe think about what they post.

Syd,

It is not helpful to say that "there are lots of unsupported opinions" and then not be specific about what they are.
No-one can reply to a blanket statement like that.

I agree with your point about the UN and an independent investigation, but as I posted, the USA have vetoed that at the UN.
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF8yK0dyXgAAS932.jpg
Why would you do that, unless you were participating in a cover up?

ncRover,

Corbyn is right about an end to the bombing. A ceasefire is vital to prevent further bloodshed.
Israel have, under pressure, conceding limited supplies can be allowed in from Egypt, but at the same time not committed to ceasing attacks.

So what is going to happen when these supplies are allowed in, eventually?
They are still held at the closed border.

[i_ateallthepies]

ncrover,

The BBC have to follow broadcasting guidelines which avoid this kind of misrepresentation.
They have failed to do so.

Your X links seem only accessible to those with an account.
Perhaps quote the text you are referring to.

I know Albie I’m just saying they have form for it.

You must have been equally annoyed at the bbc reporter who pretty much said “this can only have been an Israeli rocket” straight after the blast if you’re interested in the truth?

Ok ncRover, did the BBC reporter actually say what you put in quotations or did he 'pretty much' not say what you quoted?

[ncRover]

ncrover,

The BBC have to follow broadcasting guidelines which avoid this kind of misrepresentation.
They have failed to do so.

Your X links seem only accessible to those with an account.
Perhaps quote the text you are referring to.

I know Albie I’m just saying they have form for it.

You must have been equally annoyed at the bbc reporter who pretty much said “this can only have been an Israeli rocket” straight after the blast if you’re interested in the truth?

Ok ncRover, did the BBC reporter actually say what you put in quotations or did he 'pretty much' not say what you quoted?

I couldn’t find the video sorry but have done now

https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1714475447759544426?s=46

[i_ateallthepies]

Thanks for posting the link, nc, although he goes far too far down the road of assumption he certainly did not say what you quoted him as saying.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Thanks for posting the link, nc, although he goes far too far down the road of assumption he certainly did not say what you quoted him as saying.

He's pretty much saying that. He says that Israel denied they were responsible then said "But it's difficult to see...what else this could be but an Israeli airstrike."

Very, very poor journalism. It turns out that it is extremely unlikely that it was an Israeli airstrike. The journalist was going way beyond reporting facts and into editorialising.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Not good enough MM

You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.

It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.

We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.

There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.

All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?

You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.

MM

Yet Corbyn went online within a couple of hours of the incident and screamed that it was an attack by Israel. He's had ample opportunity to withdraw that unqualified assertion and hasn't done.

Do I really need to point out the problem with that approach?

The tweet is still there.

He’s put another one out calling for a ceasefire the day after fanning the flames.

It's an utter disgrace that he's not retracted that Tweet. It demonstrates that he has absolutely no commitment to Objective Truth.

I'm ashamed that he ever led the party I support.

[ncRover]

Thanks for posting the link, nc, although he goes far too far down the road of assumption he certainly did not say what you quoted him as saying.

Yeah apologies I shouldn’t have used the quotations marks if I couldn’t remember his wording.

The bbc website also ran with

“Hundreds killed in Israeli strike on Gaza hospital - Palestinian officials”

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities

Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.

[wilts rover]

What do we know about the Hospital explosion?

I was listening to Radio 4 this morning when Nick Robinson was talking to an Israeli commentator (I think from the Foreign Ministry) who said that around a third of the Hamas rockets explode before impact, many over Gaza. As they are home made.

Nick Robinson then asked why nothing like this (the huge number of casualties from an exploding rocket) had ever happened before? The guy said it had numerous times. Robinson didn't follow this up but can anyone remember when 500 people were killed by a home made rocket in Gaza or Israel?

Islamic Jihad deny they were carring out a rocket attack at that time:

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/netanyahu-deleted-a-post-on-x-about-a-struggle-against-children-of-darkness-around-the-time-of-a-tragic-hospital-explosion-in-gaza/articleshow/104509726.cms

Straight after the attack a 'social media advisor' to Netanyahu posted on twitter the IAF had attacked a terrorist base in the hospital. The tweet was soon deleted.

https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1714357150594588816

The Israeli government has a recent record of issuing false statements on atrocities. Witness the death of the journalist Shireen Abu Akleh.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion

Yet the photos of the area after the explosion clearly dont show the site of an air attack.

But something exploded there. It's a good possibilty it was a terrorist rocket exploding. But if there was a rocket attack being launched then generally the Israeli's launch their own rockets to shoot these down (Iron Dome). What sort of a hole would one of these leave?

And surely there is going to be debris from whatever projectile it was?

No-one can say with certainty what caused the explosion as yet. But you can certainly throw doubt on anything anyone is claiming.

[wilts rover]

There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities

Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.

Apparently there were around 1500 people sheltering in the courtyard where the explosion happened. And it's a big explosion from the videos.

The thought from the Israeli's is that it was the spare rocket fuel that exploded.

Or could it have been an air explosion from 2 rockets colliding - one shooting down the other - and the fall out from that?

[glosterred]

It would seem that the causality figure for this attack is being questioned the 500-800 figure is looking to be a lot less down to 10-50. Not a small number but substantially lower than that given out by the Palestinian Medical authority

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1715052590528971021

[wilts rover]

Press conference by Anglican Archbishop Hosam Naoum, who run the Baptist Hospital.

The IDF had warned them three days in a row on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday, to evauate as it was likely to be the target of air strikes being carried out in the area.

Though he doesn't know who caused this particular explosion 'we are not military experts'.

Dont know if he gave casualty figures, haven't heard it all yet:

https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1714970229019725957

[ncRover]

It should not be overlooked that Gaza civilians would be far safer if Hamas didn’t fire rockets from populated civilian areas.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities

Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.

Apparently there were around 1500 people sheltering in the courtyard where the explosion happened. And it's a big explosion from the videos.

The thought from the Israeli's is that it was the spare rocket fuel that exploded.

Or could it have been an air explosion from 2 rockets colliding - one shooting down the other - and the fall out from that?

Wilts.

Go and have a look at the area that was fire-damaged.

Go and have a look at how close to that area there were undamaged windows.

It is simply not credible that 500 people were killed in that sort of area. If you drew that circle around the grandstand of a packed football grandstand you wouldn't cover 500 people.

[Ldr]

It feels a bit like Wilts wants it to be Israeli forces that caused it

[BillyStubbsTears]

It feels a bit like Wilts wants it to be Israeli forces that caused it

I couldn't say what Wilts wants but that's the impression that many on the Left have given by their increasingly contorted efforts to not accept the most likely reason.

[Sprotyrover]

It is not getting any better, bodies of 20 Israeli children found today and the Body of a naked woman who had been bound up with wire!

[ncRover]

It is not getting any better, bodies of 20 Israeli children found today and the Bobby of a naked woman who had been bound up with wire!

That bloke on the video you linked said Hamas were freedom fighters BRR.

Did Mandela’s MK wing of the ANC do stuff like this?

Or did they use black South Africans as human shields?

No they didn’t.

[BobG]

Hmm. The ANC were not above using violence. Don't forget history is always, always written by the winners.

BobG

[Sprotyrover]

Ain al Assad airbase in central Iraq is under attack by Drones and Rockets, it’s a base which has US aircraft based on it source Al Jazeera.
On 8/1/2020 it was bombarded by Iranian Rockets after a strike by US drones on some Terrorist base in Iran.

[Sprotyrover]

I wonder if the UN can get neutral troops, ie Indian, Chilean, Philipino , into the south Gaza are secure a safe Zone and get unlimited humanitarian supplies in. The are north of Waddi Gaza is going to disappear in a conflagration in the next few days and there needs to be a Safe zone for non combatants and UN troops to disarm and identify any Hamas trying to do a runner!

[Sprotyrover]

US Destroyer Carnegie has come under Rocket attack off the Coast of Yemen, several missiles intercepted.
Possibly fired at the ship by Houthi Rebels, supplied by Iran

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://twitter.com/LePoint/status/1714968013068230783

European intelligence sources saying the actual death toll at the hospital was 10-50

[ravenrover]

I see that Palestinian police have retrieved the remains of the missile from the site. That's going to make interesting news when the "evidence" is produced

[drfchound]

I see that Palestinian police have retrieved the remains of the missile from the site. That's going to make interesting news when the "evidence" is produced

If it is “one of theirs” it might go missing.

[River Don]

There's still no evidence that "hundreds" were killed, beyond claims by the Palestinian authorities

Looking at the very localised damage at the impact site, with windows just a few tens of yards away intact and nearby trees untouched by flames, it seems almost inconceivable that many people died. As I said earlier, the only terrorist bombings in which the death toll went into multiple hundreds were ones where there was extensive fire or building collapsing. There's no sign of either at the hospital site.

Apparently there were around 1500 people sheltering in the courtyard where the explosion happened. And it's a big explosion from the videos.

The thought from the Israeli's is that it was the spare rocket fuel that exploded.

Or could it have been an air explosion from 2 rockets colliding - one shooting down the other - and the fall out from that?

Wilts.

Go and have a look at the area that was fire-damaged.

Go and have a look at how close to that area there were undamaged windows.

It is simply not credible that 500 people were killed in that sort of area. If you drew that circle around the grandstand of a packed football grandstand you wouldn't cover 500 people.

As I understand it they are saying a lot of displaced people were sheltering in that compound, because they felt safer in an area surrounded by hospital buildings. This makes some sense to me.

There is a rough lawned area beside the carpark and this is supposed to be where the majority of casualties were.

Never the less it is a very large figure. My hunch is there were many casualties but the figure has been inflated. I doubt we will ever know the truth.

[Sprotyrover]

Israeli Bombs have hit a Christian Church 15% of Palestinians are orthodox Christians.

[Bristol Red Rover]

That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them,  if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.

The issue over what Corbyn said is splitting hairs. What Stsrmer, Sunak and Biden, amongst other western leaders have said has given a green light to Israel. There's no hair splitting there.